Topics covered in this issue include:
1) ASAT: What's the 'best' age for testing?
by Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
2) ASAT:ADMIN - Testing
by Sally_L@comcast.net
3) ASAT: ADMIN - Conference will BEGIN NOW - Server is now UP:)))
by Sally_L@comcast.net
4) Re: ASAT: ADMIN - Conference will BEGIN NOW - Server is now UP:)))
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
5) Re: ASAT: Opening Statement by Kathi Kearney & Bobbie Gilman
by Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
6) Re: ASAT: ADMIN - Conference will BEGIN NOW - Server is now UP:)))
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
7) Re: ASAT: What's the 'best' age for testing?
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
8) Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement available to view on the website
by "R.J. Herbison" <wubison@optonline.net>
9) ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
by Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
10) ASAT: Does the V/P gap have a meaning?
by Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
11) from Malaysia
by =?iso-8859-1?q?Anthony=20Xavier?= <antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk>
12) Re: ASAT: Opening Statement by Kathi Kearney & Bobbie Gilman
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
13) Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
14) Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
by Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
15) ASAT -- testing 2E kids
by Sarah Garrison <msgarrison@sbcglobal.net>
16) Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement available to view on the website
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
17) Re: from Malaysia
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
18) RE: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
by Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
19) ASAT:How do you locate an approriate testor?
by TOMMYA COSCO RODGERS <tcrwjr@worldnet.att.net>
20) Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
21) ASAT waiting on the SB5
by Sheila Nugent <sheila.nugent@cox.net>
22) ASAT: New Version Questions?
by "Carolyn & Mark K." <carolyn@thehoagies.com>
23) ASAT: testing early elementary
by JDCWilker@aol.com
24) What can you learn from the SB-V
by mblochfamily1@comcast.net
25) RE: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
by Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
26) SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
by "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
27) Re: from Malaysia/more ideas
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
28) ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
by MF <takinuva@yahoo.com>
29) Re: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
by Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
30) ASAT: ADMIN: Thanks to all for being patient & repost Opening Statement
by Sally_L@comcast.net
31) Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
by Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
32) RE: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
by "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
33) Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
by Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net>
34) ASAT: questions on the ranges of 'gifted'
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
35) RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
by Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
36) Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
by Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
37) Re: ASAT waiting on the SB5
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
38) Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
by Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net>
39) Re: ASAT: New Version Questions?
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
40) Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
41) Re: ASAT: SB 5
by Cathy S <cathy@bowchow.com>
42) RE: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
by "Carolyn & Mark K." <carolyn@thehoagies.com>
43) assessments for pace? (was Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement
by "R.J. Herbison" <wubison@optonline.net>
44) Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
45) Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
46) RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
by "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
47) Re: What can you learn from the SB-V
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
48) Re: ASAT:How do you locate an approriate testor?
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
49) Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
50) Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
by Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
51) Re: assessments for pace? (was Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
52) Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
by JDCWilker@aol.com
53) Re: What can you learn from the SB-V
by LWalshETAL@aol.com
54) Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
55) Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
56) What about the SB-LM?
by "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
57) Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
by Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
58) Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
by JDCWilker@aol.com
59) Re: What about the SB-LM?
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
60) Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
by JDCWilker@aol.com
61) ASAT: WISC IV
by Maura MacKenzie <msmack44@yahoo.com>
62) Re: from Malaysia
by =?iso-8859-1?q?Anthony=20Xavier?= <antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk>
63) Re: from Malaysia
by =?iso-8859-1?q?Anthony=20Xavier?= <antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk>
64) RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
by Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
65) ASAT: retesting necessary?
by Steve and Becca <rorlowski@cts.com>
66) Re: ASAT -- testing 2E kids
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
67) ASAT: Re-testing?
by Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
68) ASAT Re: What can you learn from the SB-V
by Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
69) ASAT: Which test/grade to use?
by Leese Johnson <leesemom@comcast.net>
70) Re: ASAT: retesting necessary?
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
71) Re: from Malaysia
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
72) Re: ASAT: Does the V/P gap have a meaning?
by "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
73) Re: ASAT: Which test/grade to use?
by Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 09:36:24 +0100
From: Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
Subject: ASAT: What's the 'best' age for testing?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <001001c40e56$6db4fa90$8a7ba8c0@spc2>
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The subject says it all ;-)
I read Linda Silverman's suggestions: between 4 and 9, the earliest possible
for a given test (e.g. WPPSI at 4 or WISC at 6).
We sometimes hear that 'tests before the age 7 are unreliable'. As the
parents of a boy who has been accelerated twice at the age of 5, this
worries us a little bit. On one hand we saw Felix become very happy, on the
other hand there's this nagging doubt that the acceleration decision was
made based (at least partly) upon a test that is not really reliable (WPPSI
at age of 4y3m)... So, what does 'unreliable' mean in this context? Very
practically: does it mean that it is possible for a 4 year old to get a
result on a WPPSI of VIQ=150 and PIQ=118 just because of a 'temporary
development spurt'?
Our worries are even increased when we read on some websites that "it
is not
appropriate to use the term 'gifted' before the age of 6, at that age one
can only speak of a -maybe temporary- 'developmental lead', because it is
often seen that the 'develpomental lead' vanishes around the age of 9, and
the child is 'caught up' by his/her agemates"
So, what gives? What are the odds of a child to become 'ungifted' (if
stimulated appropriately)? Are we taking a risk by accelerating twice at
such a young age (although nobody -school, parent, gifted consultant- knew
about another solution)?
By the way, we see parents of children with ADHD struggle with this dilemma
as well: on one hand, the advice is "the earlier it is known, the better:
best is before the age of 7". On the other hand "one can't tell if
a child
has ADHD before the age of 6". Add to this "the symptoms should be
noticed
over a period of at least 6 months in various circumstances", and the
'optimal window' is becoming VERY small ;-)
Luc K (Felix jun98)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:40:30 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: ASAT:ADMIN - Testing
To: ourgifted-l@neiu.edu
Message-id: <032020042340.11045.77f1@comcast.net>
Testing Server
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 00:04:54 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: ASAT: ADMIN - Conference will BEGIN NOW - Server is now UP:)))
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <032120040004.27201.1e01@comcast.net>
Hi List Members,Kathi and Bobbie,
Apologies to all from the IS staff at NEIU. The NEIU network experienced a
very
severe problem which affected not only our scheduled online conference, but
the
whole university network.
Please repost/resend any posts you have sent prior to this message. Don't you
just love it when you get instructions NOT to resend, but be patient because
it
is a moderated list. The delay was much longer and not due to being moderated
so
PLEASE repost what you sent:)
I have connect with both guest experts and they are thrilled the server is
up
and the conference can really BEGIN now.
Kindest Regards,
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
List Manager
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:14:22 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: ADMIN - Conference will BEGIN NOW - Server is now UP:)))
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC82488D.C3A0%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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I'm here!!! Welcome, everyone, to the conference!
Kathi Kearney
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:19:35 -0800
From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Opening Statement by Kathi Kearney & Bobbie Gilman
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CDF97.8040108@thegoodwins.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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OK, let's try this again :-)
-------- Original Message --------
Sally_L@comcast.net wrote:
>Assessment and Testing: What about the SB5, WISC-IV, and Other
>Tests?
>
>Kathi Kearney M.A. Ed. And Barbara J. Gilman M.S
>March 20th & 21st, 2004
>
>We would love to explain what safeguards
>we use to ensure accurate test results (*please* ask us),
I'm asking... Some of the questions on the WISC III that my dd took
seemed so arbitrary, or at least the values attached to them did. As a
homeschooling family, I couldn't help but think that some of the general
knowledge information was poorly correlated with expected level of
ability or intelligence. I can get more specific upon request...
>One difference in both the individual and group assessment of
>gifted children is that, unlike other areas of special education (and,
>increasingly today, general education) a major purpose of the
>assessment of gifted children is to uncover patterns of strength,
>rather than deficits. (This is not to say that deficits may not be
>discovered during the assessment process, but it is usually not the
>primary focus of the assessment).
>
I don't know a whole lot about testing, but I guess I'm wondering if the
point isn't to uncover neither strengths nor weaknesses alone, but to
get a whole picture of the child in question. Isn't that more important
than either strengths or weaknesses in isolation, or as a focus?
Thanks,
Corin
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:33:11 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: ADMIN - Conference will BEGIN NOW - Server is now UP:)))
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CE2C7.3000804@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Welcome to all who have joined us. Sorry for the delay. We are eager
to begin, as well! :)
Bobbie Gilman
Sally_L@comcast.net wrote:
> Hi List Members,Kathi and Bobbie,
>
> Apologies to all from the IS staff at NEIU. The NEIU network experienced
a
very severe problem which affected not only our scheduled online conference,
but
the whole university network.
>
> Please repost/resend any posts you have sent prior to this message. Don't
you
just love it when you get instructions NOT to resend, but be patient because
it
is a moderated list. The delay was much longer and not due to being moderated
so
PLEASE repost what you sent:)
>
> I have connect with both guest experts and they are thrilled the server
is up
and the conference can really BEGIN now.
>
> Kindest Regards,
> Sally_L
> Conference Coordinator
> List Manager
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:37:09 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: What's the 'best' age for testing?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CE3B5.3050905@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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This is an excellent question, Luc. If your son earned a Verbal IQ
score of 150, that is a reliable estimate of highly gifted abilities.
He earned that score on a test in which a child must generate his own
answers. His score is not a fluke. When compared with age peers, his
score indicates he is at the 99.9th percentile. Giftedness is a
permanent "developmental lead," not a temporary one. The idea that
children eventually even out is not borne out by our experience.
Responding to a highly gifted child's needs early can prevent
considerable frustration. The test scores are only one indication of
his developmental advancement. Another is his response to acceleration
at school. If he is doing well and likes his placement, he needed the
acceleration. A typical child would be overwhelmed, but your son's
placements were necessary solutions. The test scores, resulting
diagnoses, and your observations of your child should fit together well,
and it sounds as though they do.
We set testing age guidelines more for the sake of "testability" with
a
young child. Children under 6 are more unpredictable in their
responses. Sometimes, they will respond beautifully to tasks they like
and refuse to do others. Or they may arrive for testing and answer far
fewer questions than their parents know they could answer. Other times,
they perform beautifully. Most testers would probably prefer children
who are 6 or 7 because the added maturity largely eliminates these
problems, but educational decisions often won't wait. Many younger
children are testable and perform well. Gifted children are cognitively
advanced, so there is a good chance they will respond as older children
would.
Only rarely do children who are tested young score lower when retested.
It is more common that they will score similarly (on a test with a
similar ceiling) if the test sessions went well, or higher if there were
problems in the early testing getting them to answer questions or
attempt items.
If there is a question whether or not a young child is testable, it is a
good idea to seek a local tester and, perhaps, arrange a brief visit
between the child and tester beforehand. On the testing day, if it
appears the child is not responding, the test should be quickly
discontinued and tried when the child is older.
Bobbie Gilman
Luc Kumps wrote:
> The subject says it all ;-)
>
> I read Linda Silverman's suggestions: between 4 and 9, the earliest possible
> for a given test (e.g. WPPSI at 4 or WISC at 6).
>
> We sometimes hear that 'tests before the age 7 are unreliable'. As the
> parents of a boy who has been accelerated twice at the age of 5, this
> worries us a little bit. On one hand we saw Felix become very happy, on
the
> other hand there's this nagging doubt that the acceleration decision was
> made based (at least partly) upon a test that is not really reliable (WPPSI
> at age of 4y3m)... So, what does 'unreliable' mean in this context? Very
> practically: does it mean that it is possible for a 4 year old to get a
> result on a WPPSI of VIQ=150 and PIQ=118 just because of a 'temporary
> development spurt'?
>
> Our worries are even increased when we read on some websites that "it
is not
> appropriate to use the term 'gifted' before the age of 6, at that age one
> can only speak of a -maybe temporary- 'developmental lead', because it
is
> often seen that the 'develpomental lead' vanishes around the age of 9,
and
> the child is 'caught up' by his/her agemates"
>
> So, what gives? What are the odds of a child to become 'ungifted' (if
> stimulated appropriately)? Are we taking a risk by accelerating twice
at
> such a young age (although nobody -school, parent, gifted consultant- knew
> about another solution)?
>
> By the way, we see parents of children with ADHD struggle with this dilemma
> as well: on one hand, the advice is "the earlier it is known, the
better:
> best is before the age of 7". On the other hand "one can't tell
if a child
> has ADHD before the age of 6". Add to this "the symptoms should
be noticed
> over a period of at least 6 months in various circumstances", and
the
> 'optimal window' is becoming VERY small ;-)
>
> Luc K (Felix jun98)
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:48:27 -0500
From: "R.J. Herbison" <wubison@optonline.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement available to view on the website
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CE65B.1060907@optonline.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> When is assessment appropriate? Who should assess gifted children?
> how can this information most effectively be used in both the
classroom and at home?
> how does one determine what out-of-level testing is most appropriate?
and *when* it is appropriate?
I can not see how else to know where someone is. for example, an 8 year
old who ceilinged on WISC III , has high verbal ability, and an
instructional level of at least 5th grade level. Does it matter that
the child is in a school where reassessing her reading to this level was
resisted and they seem have little experience with H/E/P GT kids?
r.j.
>
>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 11:45:05 +1100
From: Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
Subject: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200403210045.i2L0j2ah016950@mail5.tpgi.com.au>
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Hi All,
I have a 3 year old daughter who I need to get tested around the time she
turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next year (we
are in Oz so the school year starts in February). We have a very good
centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an excellent psychologist who tested our
son last year. She is happy to test DD and wants to use the SB-IV. This
seems to be her "pet" test to use. Our son also had the SB-IV due
to his
strong VS tendencies and slow processing.
I am wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also
strongly VS but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having any LD's
(my son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests seem to be
favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting" to use the
SB-V.
ANy input would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Glenda in Oz
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D028423800-21032004>Hi=20
All,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D028423800-21032004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D028423800-21032004>I
have =
a 3 year old=20
daughter who I need to get tested around the time she turns 4 because we =
are=20
hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next year (we are in Oz so the =
school=20
year starts in February). We have a very good centre here in =
Sydney=20
(GERRIC) with an excellent psychologist who tested our son last =
year. She=20
is happy to test DD and wants to use the SB-IV. This seems to be =
her "pet"=20
test to use. Our son also had the SB-IV due to his strong VS =
tendencies=20
and slow processing.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D028423800-21032004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D028423800-21032004>I
am =
wondering if=20
the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also strongly VS but also =
very=20
verbal. She shows no signs yet of having any LD's (my son has CAPD
=
and=20
SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests seem to be favoured above
=
the=20
SB's. The psych here is also "waiting" to use the=20
SB-V.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D028423800-21032004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D028423800-21032004>ANy
=
input would be=20
much appreciated. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D028423800-21032004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D028423800-21032004>Thanks</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D028423800-21032004>Glenda
=
in=20
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:13:30 +0100
From: Luc Kumps <luc.kumps@pandora.be>
Subject: ASAT: Does the V/P gap have a meaning?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <001701c40e63$fe1ad8e0$8a7ba8c0@spc2>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Once in a while, we see advice based upon the difference between VIQ and
PIQ.
We found sites with long lists of 'how to deal with a kid with a V/P gap'
(both in school and at home).
Parents of a child with a LD sometimes tell "we should have known, with
this
V/P discrepancy".
A lot of 'issues' are sometimes linked to a V/P gap: ADHD, visual learning
style, autism, asperger, NLD, ... You name it!
Therefore, a lot of parents are worried when a gap surfaces from the test of
their child.
But when we read scientific studies such a one-to-one relationship never
surfaces!
For any LD, it looks as if anything is possible: V>P,V=P and V<P. Specific
subtests could indicate problem areas/weaknesses, but the 'blunt knife' of
the V/P comparison doesn't really give much insight, so it seems, as opposed
to other 'averages of a set of subtests'.
Or maybe we read the wrong reports ;-)
Are there really ANY conclusions one can draw from such a 'gap'?
Are there any studies of the incidence, magnitude and the meaning of a V/P
gap among the gifted population?
Or should we just bury the gap, and rather concentrate on other 'factors'
(averages of sets of subtest) in the tests?
We often read stories of children who had a 'gap' at a younger age (WPPSI),
which disappeared mysteriously a few years later (WISC)...
(perhaps this is a result of the 'unreliability' of the tests at younger
age?)
In our case (WPPSI, age 4y3m) V=150, P=118. Strange enough, the computer
calculated TIQ=150. Must be a flaw in the software, right?
Luc K (Felix jun98)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 00:55:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Anthony=20Xavier?= <antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: from Malaysia
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321005541.51728.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
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My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly gifted"
by and an
experience Education Consultant. We were advised to take her for a BM-LM test
or the 5th edition. We searched but could not find one single pscychologists
with this test. Not to mention in Malaysia we've got only 5 PhD holders for
child pyschologists. Most psychologists we checked with had no experience in
gifted issues but we had no choice. She was administered the WISC III and her
scores were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ = 109-125 and Perfomance speed 130. These
score were total shock to us as she is now doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving
and refusing to do anything on "+" and "-". Finished her
first year science
book over a period of 10 days. She goes in extreme speed and once done, she
dont want to touch it again. She wants something new and different. She
speaks very well but we just cant seems to understand where it went wrong.
Before the test she was extremely shy with the docto
r and
just refused to look at him but settled down slowly once the test beginned.
The discrepancy between these score were 33 points. What is the significant
here? The report speaks quite highly of a fluid intelligence but the scores
dont show it. Is this 33 points difference is normal? What does it really
show?
We live in country where most are not familiar with the term "gifted".
Even the
school principal has never heard of such thing. The principal has seen my
daughter's work and is convinced that she should not spend a whole year in grade
1 and that she should get a grade jump to third level. But we're afraid now
if
the test score will jeopodise this. We're are also not comfortable with a grade
jump to 3rd grade, we afraid she will have socializing problem which she already
begins to exhibit. Same problem with her 13 year old brother.
Please and please share your views with us.
Worried parents
Sheila & Anthony
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<DIV>My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly
gifted" by
and an experience Education Consultant. We were advised to take her
for a
BM-LM test or the 5th edition. We searched but could not find one
single
pscychologists with this test. Not to mention in Malaysia we've got
only 5
PhD holders for child pyschologists. Most psychologists we checked
with
had no experience in gifted issues but we had no choice. She was
administered the WISC III and her scores were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ = 109-125
and Perfomance speed 130. These score were total shock to us as she
is now
doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving and refusing to do anything on "+"
and
"-". Finished her first year science book over a period
of 10 days.
She goes in extreme speed and once done, she dont want to touch it again.
She wants something new and different. She speaks
very well
but we just cant seems to understand where it
went
wrong. Before the test she was extremely shy with the doctor and just
refused to look at him but settled down slowly once the test beginned.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The discrepancy between these score were 33 points. <STRONG>What
is
the significant here? </STRONG>The report speaks quite highly
of a fluid
intelligence but the scores dont show it. Is this 33 points difference
is
normal? What does it really show?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We live in country where most are not familiar with the term
"gifted". Even the school principal has never heard of such
thing.
The principal has seen my daughter's work and is convinced that she should not
spend a whole year in grade 1 and that she should get a grade jump
to third
level. But we're afraid now if the test score will jeopodise this.
We're are also not comfortable with a grade jump to 3rd grade, we afraid she
will have socializing problem which she already begins to exhibit.
Same
problem with her 13 year old brother.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Please and please share your views with us.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Worried parents</DIV>
<DIV>Sheila & Anthony</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><p>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:01:05 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Opening Statement by Kathi Kearney & Bobbie Gilman
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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Corin asked:
> I'm asking... Some of the questions on the WISC III that my dd took
> seemed so arbitrary, or at least the values attached to them did. As a
> homeschooling family, I couldn't help but think that some of the general
> knowledge information was poorly correlated with expected level of
> ability or intelligence. I can get more specific upon request...>>>>>
No need to get more specific, Corin.
I think that this probably would come under the category of some of the
issues that come up in testing so-called "culturally different" children.
Homeschooled students, as far as I know, were not specifically included in
the norming sample for the WISC-III, even though at the time the WISC-III
was normed, they comprised about 1 and 1/2 percent of the U. S. schoolage
population.
Some of the things we know about homeschooled students is that they do, as
a
group, tend to have less exposure to some elements of modern popular culture
(such as television) than their conventionally schooled peers, as a group,
have. (They also tend to read much more -- but we are becoming a much less
verbal and a much more visual society than we were 100 years ago, and, in my
opinion, our newer tests reflect this).
This illustrates some of the cross-cultural issues involved with testing, by
the way.
Homeschooled students now comprise about 3% of the U. S. school-age
population. I know for sure that some homeschooled students *were* included
in the standardization samples and validation studies for the SB5, but I am
not sure of the percentage -- Drew Carson from Riverside is on this list --
Drew, do you happen to know offhand how many homeschooled students were part
of the SB5 standardization and validation studies? I know that you collected
that information.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:03:09 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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Glenda, why is the psychologist "waiting" to use the SB5?
on 3/20/04 5:45 PM, Glenda Parsons at glendap@parsonsdesigns.com wrote:
Hi All,
I have a 3 year old daughter who I need to get tested around the time she
turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next year (we
are in Oz so the school year starts in February). We have a very good
centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an excellent psychologist who tested our
son last year. She is happy to test DD and wants to use the SB-IV. This
seems to be her "pet" test to use. Our son also had the SB-IV due
to his
strong VS tendencies and slow processing.
I am wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also
strongly VS but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having any LD's
(my son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests seem to be
favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting" to use the
SB-V.
ANy input would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Glenda in Oz
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<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old</TITLE>
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<BODY>
Glenda, why is the psychologist "waiting" to use the SB5?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 3/20/04 5:45 PM, Glenda Parsons at glendap@parsonsdesigns.com wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Hi
All,<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I have
a 3 year old daughter who I need t=
o get tested around the time she turns 4 because we are hoping for early ent=
ry to Kindergarten next year (we are in Oz so the school year starts in Febr=
uary). We have a very good centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an
exce=
llent psychologist who tested our son last year. She is happy to test
=
DD and wants to use the SB-IV. This seems to be her "pet"
te=
st to use. Our son also had the SB-IV due to his strong VS tendencies
=
and slow processing.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I am wondering
if the SB-IV is the best c=
hoice for my DD who is also strongly VS but also very verbal. She
show=
s no signs yet of having any LD's (my son has CAPD and SID). I know
is=
US the WPSII/WISC tests seem to be favoured above the SB's. The
psych=
here is also "waiting" to use the SB-V.<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">ANy input
would be much appreciated. &nbs=
p;<BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks<BR>
Glenda in Oz<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 16:59:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321005917.66667.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>
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I'm so glad we're getting going! It was a long wait for all of us.
It seems that most people are familiar with the WISC-III and WISC-IV, and the
SBs in all their incarnations. Is anyone in the gifted community using the DAS
(DIfferential Ability Scales)? As an evaluator, I like this test for a number
of reasons. It is brief, yet gives good information about verbal ability,
spatial ability and nonverbal ability (non-verbal problem solving, or inductive
reasoning). It does not mix more automatic tasks, such as processing speed and
short-term memory, into the overall score, but assess these skills separately.
It also seems to be yielding higher scores than the WISC-IV, which in turn
yields higher scores than the SB:5. Of course, I've only tested a handful of
students using more than one IQ test. And, of course, the DAS is due for
revision, as it's older than the WISC-IV and SB:5.
Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?
Thanks! - Laurie
Sally_L@comcast.net wrote:
Assessment and Testing: What about the SB5, WISC-IV, and Other
Tests?
Kathi Kearney M.A. Ed. And Barbara J. Gilman M.S
March 20th & 21st, 2004
This conference will explore some of the issues surrounding
assessment of gifted children. When is assessment appropriate?
Who should assess gifted children? What instruments are most
commonly used, and why? What is the impact of new assessment
instruments and new revisions on the identification of gifted
children? What information can be gained from a full evaluation,
and how can this information most effectively be used
in both the classroom and at home?
Opening Statement
"Few experiences are more fascinating to me than testing a gifted
child. From the first moments of meeting the child, a picture of
that child's pattern of abilities and, perhaps, relative weaknesses is
becoming apparent. Once we begin the IQ test, I am observing
verbal abstract reasoning, spatial reasoning, general knowledge,
vision, audition, memory, motor skills, processing speed, attention
and a host of subtle cues that help to further explain the scores the
child earns. The sessions are usually very engaging for these
children; the inherent challenge of the tests often eclipses what
they experience at school. They are usually happy, frequently quite
humorous, and virtually always well-motivated to do their best. But
for me, amidst the enjoyment of getting to know them, the pieces
of a puzzle are being put into place and the final puzzle seems
always to be unique from all of the others that I have watched
coalesce." (B.J. Gilman, Empowering Gifted Minds: Educational
Advocacy That Works)
Welcome to our online conference about gifted assessment. In the
next two days, we hope to shed light on many aspects of testing:
to explain what can be learned through testing, to look at how
tests can be used positively to document abilities and suggest
accommodations in school, and to consider how newly revised and
renormed tests are performing with the gifted population. What do
these findings suggest about the ways these new instruments
should be used with the gifted?
The Microcosm: Testing the Gifted
We are unabashed supporters of testing, when it constitutes a part
of clinical observation and is supplemented by consideration of a
child's developmental history. No single test or score, when
considered in isolation from other observations, can ever be
completely relied upon to document a child's abilities. It may, but it
also may not; without additional observations we have no gauge of
whether our scores represent underestimates.
Those of us experienced in testing the gifted can usually make
close estimates of the scores children will earn based on our
knowledge of and initial conversations with them. Those qualities
that we have learned to recognize as gifted, or highly or profoundly
gifted, become recognizable. However, the tests offer us tools to
further explore a child's intellectual functioning and document it.
They shortcut the process of observing the child's responses to
varied situations, over the course of days or months, into a few
hours. Because they provide normative comparisons with age
peers, we are able to tell how advanced, typical, or delayed a
child's abilities are.
IQ tests (often in conjunction with achievement tests) allow us to
clarify the educational needs of children who are discrepant from
the average and to provide information needed to create an
appropriate educational program for them. Although the
performance of average children is important in norming these
tests, the tests are rarely used for average children experiencing no
problems in school. They are used most with developmentally
delayed children, those with learning disabilities or other deficits,
and the gifted because typical educational programs are not
working well for these children. Results from such tests help
parents make child-rearing decisions and they provide excellent
input about educational needs. They also provide documentation
that what the parent thinks about the child's abilities has been
confirmed by a professional. Parents of the gifted are so often
put in the difficult position of justifying why they believe their
children are gifted that testing becomes essential to provide a
factual basis for discussion with school personnel.
Because we work with gifted children, whose scores are high and
sometimes very high, we frequently face criticism for scores that
some find hard to believe. Equally low scores don't generate the
same degree of doubt because they are not viewed as desirable.
Charges of inaccurate scoring, inappropriate test administration,
and gullibility in the face of parents "shopping for scores," are
our
constant companions. We would love to explain what safeguards
we use to ensure accurate test results (*please* ask us), and to
discuss some of the testing needs that are typical of the gifted.
What we want most is to secure the same concern for gifted
children with unique needs, based on their unusually high
scores, as is accorded disabled children with similarly discrepant
scores.
Tests vary in their content, their appropriateness with different
populations, their usefulness as a basis for educational requests. A
good tester will choose tests carefully to document the strengths
of the child, explore any relative weaknesses, and demonstrate
need for accommodations. Tests are less powerful when only one
test is allowed to document giftedness. The abilities emphasized
on the particular test may or may not correspond with the child's
strengths. The wise gifted program, school, or school district will
allow multiple assessments, and outside testing with qualified
professionals, to enhance its ability to identify gifted children.
The Macrocosm: Testing in Society
In 1919, at the dawn of the mental testing movement in this
country, the author of the original Stanford-Binet, Lewis Terman,
made a very important statement. In his book "The Intelligence of
School Children," he noted that "If the tests are not to be used,
they
had better not be given."
Today we are faced with a testing culture gone awry.
Schoolchildren are required by both state and federal laws to be
tested frequently, and in many contemporary classrooms, mere
test prep has replaced true education. In the case of gifted
children, both group and individual tests often are used to qualify
them for gifted programs, but the information provided by the
tests is often never used to help provide appropriate interventions.
Testing of children for gifted programs is also often used to
exclude children from programs, rather than to include them.
Inappropriate tests are also commonly used for the gifted - tests
with ceilings that are too low, and tests that test areas other than
those designed to be served by a specific program, thus resulting
in a mismatch between a child's abilities and the program
presented by the school. Perhaps even more worrisome, and
certainly a trend that is ethically suspect, we are hearing more and
more stories from the media of gifted children prevented by their
schools from participating in regional classes for the gifted located
in another school in the district, because the sending school will
then "lose" the gifted child's high achievement test scores, thus
lowering the school's entire test average under No Child Left
Behind.
The Solution
The assessment of gifted children should always lead to a better
understanding of the child, and appropriate recommendations and
interventions, whether that assessment is an individual assessment
of ability or achievement, or performance on a group instrument.
Otherwise, as Terman noted, the tests "had better not be given."
Proper assessment should never be merely a gatekeeping activity
governing entrance into certain programs, nor should it be done
primarily to satisfy politicians, as is the case with so much testing
in our schools today. Proper assessment of gifted children should
yield information useful to the child, the family, and the school --
information that will assist in the optimal development of the
individual.
One difference in both the individual and group assessment of
gifted children is that, unlike other areas of special education (and,
increasingly today, general education) a major purpose of the
assessment of gifted children is to uncover patterns of strength,
rather than deficits. (This is not to say that deficits may not be
discovered during the assessment process, but it is usually not the
primary focus of the assessment). This contrasts widely with many
of the other major uses of assessment in contemporary society.
Conference Expectations
We expect some additional issues to arise during this conference,
in addition to basic questions about when and why to assess
gifted children, the uses of assessment information, and specific
issues related to the assessment process. We encourage you to
ask questions about assessing twice-exceptional gifted children
(gifted children with disabilities); gifted children from differing
backgrounds; the use (and misuse) of group achievement and
ability tests as well as individual tests; and the concept of out-of-
level testing and the upcoming changes in the SATs.
Finally, there are things that we can and can't do in this conference.
We CAN give you an overview of what to expect if you decide to go
ahead with an individual assessment of your child. We CAN'T
compromise test security in any way, which means we cannot
discuss specific test content or individual test items. We CAN
identify some of the strengths and weaknesses of various test
instruments and testing approaches with the gifted. We CAN'T give
individual advice or comment on test profiles of individual children.
We also hope to share some of our own ideas and hopes for the
future of assessment with the gifted.
Let the conference begin!
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<DIV>I'm so glad we're getting going! It was a long wait for
all of
us.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It seems that most people are familiar with the WISC-III and WISC-IV,
and
the SBs in all their incarnations. Is anyone in the gifted community
using
the DAS (DIfferential Ability Scales)? As an evaluator, I like this
test
for a number of reasons. It is brief, yet gives good information about
verbal ability, spatial ability and nonverbal ability (non-verbal problem
solving, or inductive reasoning). It does not mix more automatic tasks,
such as processing speed and short-term memory, into the overall score, but
assess these skills separately. It also seems to be yielding higher
scores
than the WISC-IV, which in turn yields higher scores than the SB:5.
Of
course, I've only tested a handful of students using more than one IQ
test. And, of course, the DAS is due for revision, as it's older than
the
WISC-IV and SB:5.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks! - Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>Sally_L@comcast.net</I></B>
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Assessment and Testing: What about the
SB5,
WISC-IV, and Other <BR>Tests? <BR><BR>Kathi Kearney M.A. Ed.
And Barbara J.
Gilman M.S <BR>March 20th & 21st, 2004 <BR><BR>This
conference will explore
some of the issues surrounding <BR>assessment of gifted children. When
is
assessment appropriate? <BR>Who should assess gifted children? What instruments
are most <BR>commonly used, and why? What is the impact of new assessment
<BR>instruments and new revisions on the identification of gifted <BR>children?
What information can be gained from a full evaluation, <BR>and how can
this
information most effectively be used <BR>in both the classroom and at
home?
<BR><BR><BR>Opening Statement <BR><BR>"Few
experiences are more fascinating to
me than testing a gifted <BR>child. From the first moments of meeting
the child,
a picture of <BR>that child's pattern of abilities and, perhaps, rela
tive
weaknesses is <BR>becoming apparent. Once we begin the IQ test, I am observing
<BR>verbal abstract reasoning, spatial reasoning, general knowledge, <BR>vision,
audition, memory, motor skills, processing speed, attention <BR>and a
host of
subtle cues that help to further explain the scores the <BR>child earns.
The
sessions are usually very engaging for these <BR>children; the inherent
challenge of the tests often eclipses what <BR>they experience at school.
They
are usually happy, frequently quite <BR>humorous, and virtually always
well-motivated to do their best. But <BR>for me, amidst the enjoyment
of getting
to know them, the pieces <BR>of a puzzle are being put into place and
the final
puzzle seems <BR>always to be unique from all of the others that I have
watched
<BR>coalesce." (B.J. Gilman, Empowering Gifted Minds: Educational
<BR>Advocacy
That Works) <BR><BR>Welcome to our online conference about gifted
assessment. In
the <BR>next two days, we hope to shed light on man
y
aspects of testing: <BR>to explain what can be learned through testing,
to look
at how <BR>tests can be used positively to document abilities and suggest
<BR>accommodations in school, and to consider how newly revised and <BR>renormed
tests are performing with the gifted population. What do <BR>these findings
suggest about the ways these new instruments <BR>should be used with the
gifted?
<BR><BR><BR>The Microcosm: Testing the Gifted <BR><BR>We
are unabashed
supporters of testing, when it constitutes a part <BR>of clinical observation
and is supplemented by consideration of a <BR>child's developmental history.
No
single test or score, when <BR>considered in isolation from other observations,
can ever be <BR>completely relied upon to document a child's abilities.
It may,
but it <BR>also may not; without additional observations we have no gauge
of
<BR>whether our scores represent underestimates. <BR><BR>Those
of us experienced
in testing the gifted can usually make <BR>close e
stimates
of the scores children will earn based on our <BR>knowledge of and initial
conversations with them. Those qualities <BR>that we have learned to recognize
as gifted, or highly or profoundly <BR>gifted, become recognizable. However,
the
tests offer us tools to <BR>further explore a child's intellectual functioning
and document it. <BR>They shortcut the process of observing the child's
responses to <BR>varied situations, over the course of days or months,
into a
few <BR>hours. Because they provide normative comparisons with age <BR>peers,
we
are able to tell how advanced, typical, or delayed a <BR>child's abilities
are.
<BR><BR>IQ tests (often in conjunction with achievement tests) allow
us to
<BR>clarify the educational needs of children who are discrepant from
<BR>the
average and to provide information needed to create an <BR>appropriate
educational program for them. Although the <BR>performance of average
children
is important in norming these <BR>tests, the tests are rarely
used
for average children experiencing no <BR>problems in school. They are
used most
with developmentally <BR>delayed children, those with learning disabilities
or
other deficits, <BR>and the gifted because typical educational programs
are not
<BR>working well for these children. Results from such tests help <BR>parents
make child-rearing decisions and they provide excellent <BR>input about
educational needs. They also provide documentation <BR>that what the parent
thinks about the child's abilities has been <BR>confirmed by a professional.
Parents of the gifted are so often <BR>put in the difficult position of
justifying why they believe their <BR>children are gifted that testing
becomes
essential to provide a <BR>factual basis for discussion with school personnel.
<BR><BR>Because we work with gifted children, whose scores are high
and
<BR>sometimes very high, we frequently face criticism for scores that
<BR>some
find hard to believe. Equally low scores don't generate the <BR>sa
me
degree of doubt because they are not viewed as desirable. <BR>Charges
of
inaccurate scoring, inappropriate test administration, <BR>and gullibility
in
the face of parents "shopping for scores," are our <BR>constant
companions. We
would love to explain what safeguards <BR>we use to ensure accurate test
results
(*please* ask us), and to <BR>discuss some of the testing needs that are
typical
of the gifted. <BR>What we want most is to secure the same concern for
gifted
<BR>children with unique needs, based on their unusually high <BR>scores,
as is
accorded disabled children with similarly discrepant <BR>scores. <BR><BR>Tests
vary in their content, their appropriateness with different <BR>populations,
their usefulness as a basis for educational requests. A <BR>good tester
will
choose tests carefully to document the strengths <BR>of the child, explore
any
relative weaknesses, and demonstrate <BR>need for accommodations. Tests
are less
powerful when only one <BR>test is allowed to
document
giftedness. The abilities emphasized <BR>on the particular test may or
may not
correspond with the child's <BR>strengths. The wise gifted program, school,
or
school district will <BR>allow multiple assessments, and outside testing
with
qualified <BR>professionals, to enhance its ability to identify gifted
children.
<BR><BR><BR>The Macrocosm: Testing in Society <BR><BR>In
1919, at the dawn of
the mental testing movement in this <BR>country, the author of the original
Stanford-Binet, Lewis Terman, <BR>made a very important statement. In
his book
"The Intelligence of <BR>School Children," he noted that "If
the tests are not
to be used, they <BR>had better not be given." <BR><BR>Today
we are faced with a
testing culture gone awry. <BR>Schoolchildren are required by both state
and
federal laws to be <BR>tested frequently, and in many contemporary classrooms,
mere <BR>test prep has replaced true education. In the case of gifted
<BR>children, both group and individual tests often a
re used
to qualify <BR>them for gifted programs, but the information provided
by the
<BR>tests is often never used to help provide appropriate interventions.
<BR>Testing of children for gifted programs is also often used to <BR>exclude
children from programs, rather than to include them. <BR>Inappropriate
tests are
also commonly used for the gifted - tests <BR>with ceilings that are too
low,
and tests that test areas other than <BR>those designed to be served by
a
specific program, thus resulting <BR>in a mismatch between a child's abilities
and the program <BR>presented by the school. Perhaps even more worrisome,
and
<BR>certainly a trend that is ethically suspect, we are hearing more and
<BR>more stories from the media of gifted children prevented by their
<BR>schools from participating in regional classes for the gifted located
<BR>in
another school in the district, because the sending school will <BR>then
"lose"
the gifted child's high achievement test scores, thus <BR>lowering
the
school's entire test average under No Child Left <BR>Behind. <BR><BR><BR>The
Solution <BR><BR>The assessment of gifted children should always
lead to a
better <BR>understanding of the child, and appropriate recommendations
and
<BR>interventions, whether that assessment is an individual assessment
<BR>of
ability or achievement, or performance on a group instrument. <BR>Otherwise,
as
Terman noted, the tests "had better not be given." <BR>Proper
assessment should
never be merely a gatekeeping activity <BR>governing entrance into certain
programs, nor should it be done <BR>primarily to satisfy politicians,
as is the
case with so much testing <BR>in our schools today. Proper assessment
of gifted
children should <BR>yield information useful to the child, the family,
and the
school -- <BR>information that will assist in the optimal development
of the
<BR>individual. <BR><BR>One difference in both the individual
and group
assessment of <BR>gifted children is that, unlike other areas
of
special education (and, <BR>increasingly today, general education) a major
purpose of the <BR>assessment of gifted children is to uncover patterns
of
strength, <BR>rather than deficits. (This is not to say that deficits
may not be
<BR>discovered during the assessment process, but it is usually not the
<BR>primary focus of the assessment). This contrasts widely with many
<BR>of the
other major uses of assessment in contemporary society. <BR><BR><BR>Conference
Expectations <BR><BR>We expect some additional issues to arise during
this
conference, <BR>in addition to basic questions about when and why to assess
<BR>gifted children, the uses of assessment information, and specific
<BR>issues
related to the assessment process. We encourage you to <BR>ask questions
about
assessing twice-exceptional gifted children <BR>(gifted children with
disabilities); gifted children from differing <BR>backgrounds; the use
(and
misuse) of group achievement and <BR>ability tests as well as individ
ual
tests; and the concept of out-of- <BR>level testing and the upcoming changes
in
the SATs. <BR><BR>Finally, there are things that we can and can't
do in this
conference. <BR>We CAN give you an overview of what to expect if you decide
to
go <BR>ahead with an individual assessment of your child. We CAN'T
<BR>compromise test security in any way, which means we cannot <BR>discuss
specific test content or individual test items. We CAN <BR>identify some
of the
strengths and weaknesses of various test <BR>instruments and testing approaches
with the gifted. We CAN'T give <BR>individual advice or comment on test
profiles
of individual children. <BR>We also hope to share some of our own ideas
and
hopes for the <BR>future of assessment with the gifted. <BR><BR>Let
the
conference begin! <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p><font face=arial
size=-1>Do you
Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><b>Yahoo!
Finance Tax
Center</a></b> - File online. File on time.
--0-2138663959-1079830757=:63998--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:03:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Sarah Garrison <msgarrison@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: ASAT -- testing 2E kids
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321010317.63744.qmail@web80509.mail.yahoo.com>
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Thank you, ladies, for hosting this conference.
I'll go ahead and take a stab at the "testing twice-exceptional kids" question.
My ds, Origami, is 7.5 yo, pg and an Aspie. We had him tested at 5.5 yo; he
ceilinged the WPPSI, took the WIAT and SB-LM. He refused to finish the SB-LM,
so we do not know how accurate his score really is. My dh argues that since
his
personality is such that he regularly is uncooperative and recalcitrant, the
score is as good as any.
I would be interested in knowing: is there any research on how being "on
the
spectrum" affects testing, either with regard to choice of test or with
regard
to whether scores might be affected?
Thank you,
SarahG
msgarrison@sbcglobal.net
"It really is difficult to imagine how people who have entirely given
up
managing their own affairs could make a wise choice of those who are to do that
for them. One should never expect a liberal, energetic and wise government to
originate in the votes of a people of servants." -- Alexis de Tocqueville
GO ZAGS!!
--0-1492614731-1079830997=:62745
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<P>Thank you, ladies, for hosting this conference.</P>
<P>I'll go ahead and take a stab at the "testing twice-exceptional
kids"
question.</P>
<P>My ds, Origami, is 7.5 yo, pg and an Aspie. We had him tested
at 5.5
yo; he ceilinged the WPPSI, took the WIAT and SB-LM. He refused to
finish
the SB-LM, so we do not know how accurate his score really is. My
dh
argues that since his personality is such that he regularly is uncooperative
and
recalcitrant, the score is as good as any.</P>
<P>I would be interested in knowing: is there any research on
how being
"on the spectrum" affects testing, either with regard to choice of
test or with
regard to whether scores might be affected?</P>
<P>Thank you,</P>
<P>SarahG </P><BR><BR>msgarrison@sbcglobal.net<br><br>"It
really is
difficult to imagine how people who have entirely given up managing their own
affairs could make a wise choice of those who are to do that for them. One
should never expect a liberal, energetic and wise government to originate in
the
votes of a people of servants." -- Alexis de Tocqueville<br><br>GO
ZAGS!!
--0-1492614731-1079830997=:62745--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:08:41 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement available to view on the website
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC825548.C3B0%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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RJ quoted from our opening statement:
>> When is assessment appropriate? Who should assess gifted children?
>
>> how can this information most effectively be used in both the
> classroom and at home?
And then asked:
>
>> how does one determine what out-of-level testing is most appropriate?
>
> and *when* it is appropriate?
>
> I can not see how else to know where someone is. for example, an 8 year
> old who ceilinged on WISC III , has high verbal ability, and an
> instructional level of at least 5th grade level. Does it matter that
> the child is in a school where reassessing her reading to this level was
> resisted and they seem have little experience with H/E/P GT kids?>>>>
I would think in this situation, it would be an excellent idea to assess her
reading level, both with an individual achievement test with a high ceiling,
such as the Woodcock-Johnson III Tests of Achievement, and also with the
curriculum-based assessments that are used with your school's reading
instruction program.
The idea is to match her up with instruction at an appropriate instructional
level for her (and instruction that moves at an appropriate pace for her).
However, you may want to carefully vet the books she reads, if she is
reading books usually read by older children (or adults), to make sure that
the content is appropriate for her emotional development and is not too
intense for her, and also to make sure the books don't inadvertently address
topics that you'd rather she not be exposed to til she's older.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:11:01 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: from Malaysia
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC8255D4.C3B4%kkearney@ttlc.net>
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Sheila and Anthony, some very important questions before going any further.
Is English her first language?
Was the WISC-III administered in English?
on 3/20/04 5:55 PM, Anthony Xavier at antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly gifted"
by and
an experience Education Consultant. We were advised to take her for a BM-LM
test or the 5th edition. We searched but could not find one single
pscychologists with this test. Not to mention in Malaysia we've got only 5
PhD holders for child pyschologists. Most psychologists we checked with had
no experience in gifted issues but we had no choice. She was administered
the WISC III and her scores were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ = 109-125 and
Perfomance speed 130. These score were total shock to us as she is now
doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving and refusing to do anything on "+"
and
"-". Finished her first year science book over a period of 10 days.
She
goes in extreme speed and once done, she dont want to touch it again. She
wants something new and different. She speaks very well but we just cant
seems to understand where it went wrong. Before the test she was extremely
shy with the doctor and just refused to look at him but settled down slowly
once the test beginned.
The discrepancy between these score were 33 points. What is the significant
here? The report speaks quite highly of a fluid intelligence but the scores
dont show it. Is this 33 points difference is normal? What does it really
show?
We live in country where most are not familiar with the term "gifted".
Even
the school principal has never heard of such thing. The principal has seen
my daughter's work and is convinced that she should not spend a whole year
in grade 1 and that she should get a grade jump to third level. But we're
afraid now if the test score will jeopodise this. We're are also not
comfortable with a grade jump to 3rd grade, we afraid she will have
socializing problem which she already begins to exhibit. Same problem with
her 13 year old brother.
Please and please share your views with us.
Worried parents
Sheila & Anthony
Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today!
Download Messenger Now
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<HEAD>
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Sheila and Anthony, some very important questions before going any further.=
<BR>
<BR>
Is English her first language? <BR>
<BR>
Was the WISC-III administered in English?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
on 3/20/04 5:55 PM, Anthony Xavier at antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "hig=
hly gifted" by and an experience Education Consultant. We
were ad=
vised to take her for a BM-LM test or the 5th edition. We searched
but=
could not find one single pscychologists with this test. Not to menti=
on in Malaysia we've got only 5 PhD holders for child pyschologists. M=
ost psychologists we checked with had no experience in gifted issues but we
=
had no choice. She was administered the WISC III and her scores were
V=
IQ=3D86 - 93, whereas PIQ =3D 109-125 and Perfomance speed 130. These
scor=
e were total shock to us as she is now doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving=
and refusing to do anything on "+" and "-".
Finis=
hed her first year science book over a period of 10 days. She goes
in =
extreme speed and once done, she dont want to touch it again. She
want=
s something new and different. She speaks very
well but we=
just cant seems to understand where it went wrong. Before the test
sh=
e was extremely shy with the doctor and just refused to look at him but sett=
led down slowly once the test beginned.<BR>
<BR>
The discrepancy between these score were 33 points. <B>What
is the si=
gnificant here? </B>The report speaks quite highly of a fluid
intellig=
ence but the scores dont show it. Is this 33 points difference is
norm=
al? What does it really show?<BR>
<BR>
We live in country where most are not familiar with the term "gifted&q=
uot;. Even the school principal has never heard of such thing. T=
he principal has seen my daughter's work and is convinced that she should no=
t spend a whole year in grade 1 and that she should get a grade jump to thir=
d level. But we're afraid now if the test score will jeopodise this.
&=
nbsp;We're are also not comfortable with a grade jump to 3rd grade, we afrai=
d she will have socializing problem which she already begins to exhibit. &nb=
sp;Same problem with her 13 year old brother.<BR>
<BR>
Please and please share your views with us.<BR>
<BR>
Worried parents<BR>
Sheila & Anthony<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"1" WIDTH=3D"100%"><BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> <B>
Yahoo! Messenger</B> - Communicate i=
nstantly..."Ping" your friends today! <B>Download Messenger
Now</B=
></FONT></FONT> <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:11:07 +1100
From: Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
Subject: RE: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200403210111.i2L1B350014592@mail5.tpgi.com.au>
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Hi Kathy,
I am not sure about this. I was told by her secretary that she was not
using it yet and I got the impression that she may in the future but not
yet.. ANother firend told me that the IQ seems to give a lower estimate on
the SB-V than other tests, is this your experience?
Glenda
_____
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
Behalf Of Kathi Kearney
Sent: Sunday, 21 March 2004 2:03 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
Glenda, why is the psychologist "waiting" to use the SB5?
on 3/20/04 5:45 PM, Glenda Parsons at glendap@parsonsdesigns.com wrote:
Hi All,
I have a 3 year old daughter who I need to get tested around the time she
turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next year (we
are in Oz so the school year starts in February). We have a very good
centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an excellent psychologist who tested our
son last year. She is happy to test DD and wants to use the SB-IV. This
seems to be her "pet" test to use. Our son also had the SB-IV due
to his
strong VS tendencies and slow processing.
I am wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also
strongly VS but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having any LD's
(my son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests seem to be
favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting" to use the
SB-V.
ANy input would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Glenda in Oz
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2737.800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D869500801-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi Kathy,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D869500801-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D869500801-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I am not sure about this. I was told by
=
her secretary=20
that she was not using it yet and I got the impression that she may in =
the=20
future but not yet.. ANother firend told me that the IQ seems to =
give a=20
lower estimate on the SB-V than other tests, is this your=20
experience?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D869500801-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D869500801-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Glenda</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu=20
[mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Kathi=20
Kearney<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 21 March 2004 2:03 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ASAT : The Best
Test for a 4 =
Year=20
old<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Glenda, why is the psychologist "waiting"
to use the=20
SB5?<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>on 3/20/04 5:45
PM, Glenda Parsons at=20
glendap@parsonsdesigns.com wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Hi =
All,<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>I have a 3 year old daughter who I need
to =
get tested=20
around the time she turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to=20
Kindergarten next year (we are in Oz so the school year starts in =
February).=20
We have a very good centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an =
excellent=20
psychologist who tested our son last year. She is happy to test =
DD and=20
wants to use the SB-IV. This seems to be her "pet" test
to use.=20
Our son also had the SB-IV due to his strong VS tendencies and =
slow=20
processing.<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FONT
face=3DArial>I =
am wondering=20
if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also strongly VS but =
also=20
very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having any LD's (my son =
has CAPD=20
and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests seem to be favoured =
above=20
the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting" to use the=20
SB-V.<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FONT
face=3DArial>ANy input =
would be=20
much appreciated. <BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Thanks<BR>Glenda in=20
Oz<BR></FONT></FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:14:29 -0800
From: TOMMYA COSCO RODGERS <tcrwjr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: ASAT:How do you locate an approriate testor?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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How do I locate an appropriate person to administer assessment tests for our
DD. We live in Southern California, I never expected this much challenge.
On testor my DH and I met was so clearly the wrong person, I can't believe I
even thought about it for a minute.
Where do I look? What questions should I ask?
THANK YOU
M's Mom
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:14:19 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CEC6B.40801@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Glenda, here is one idea. We do like the new WPPSI-III (Wechsler
Preschool and Primary Scale of Intelligence-Third Edition). It has two
forms: one for children ages 2-6 (2 years 6 months) to 3-11, and one
for ages 4-0 to 7-3 (although we would give a WISC-IV at 6-0). The form
for very young children is short (4 required subtests) and only Object
Assembly is timed (rather generously). The portion for ages 4-0 and up
requires 7 subtests and has a good mix of verbal and visual reasoning in
a child-friendly test (administration is more comfortable than with the
WPPSI-R for little ones). The test does have a Processing Speed
Quotient, but only one of the two subtests from which it is calculated
is included in the Full Scale IQ score. This is a visual-motor speed,
handwriting-like test. There have been improvements to the newest WPPSI
for gifted children, and we like its diagnostic properties better
Bobbie Gilman
Glenda Parsons wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I have a 3 year old daughter who I need to get tested around the time
> she turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next
> year (we are in Oz so the school year starts in February). We have a
> very good centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an excellent
> psychologist who tested our son last year. She is happy to test DD
> and wants to use the SB-IV. This seems to be her "pet" test to
use.
> Our son also had the SB-IV due to his strong VS tendencies and slow
> processing.
>
>
>
> I am wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also
> strongly VS but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having
> any LD's (my son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests
> seem to be favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting"
> to use the SB-V.
>
>
>
> ANy input would be much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Glenda in Oz
>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:13:14 -0500
From: Sheila Nugent <sheila.nugent@cox.net>
Subject: ASAT waiting on the SB5
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <000f01c40ee1$af5302e0$0302a8c0@family.dc.dc.cox.net>
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Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year oldI'm not Glenda, but my 8yo was just
tested with the WISC-IV at George Mason University. The examiner, a
graduate student under the direction of the psych guy there, said he wasn't
using the SB5 because of the norms being newer and because "you lose a
few
points" ??? on the SB5 compared to the WISC-IV.
I was hoping you'd explain, Kathi :-)
Sheila
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu]On
Behalf Of Kathi Kearney
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 10:03 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
Glenda, why is the psychologist "waiting" to use the SB5?
on 3/20/04 5:45 PM, Glenda Parsons at glendap@parsonsdesigns.com wrote:
Hi All,
I have a 3 year old daughter who I need to get tested around the time
she turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next year
(we are in Oz so the school year starts in February). We have a very good
centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an excellent psychologist who tested our
son last year. She is happy to test DD and wants to use the SB-IV. This
seems to be her "pet" test to use. Our son also had the SB-IV due
to his
strong VS tendencies and slow processing.
I am wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also
strongly VS but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having any LD's
(my son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests seem to be
favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting" to use the
SB-V.
ANy input would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Glenda in Oz
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D700000901-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2>I'm=20
not Glenda, but my 8yo was just tested with the WISC-IV at George Mason=20
University. The examiner, a graduate student under the direction =
of the=20
psych guy there, said he wasn't using the SB5 because of the norms being =
newer=20
and because "you lose a few points" ??? on the SB5 compared to the=20
WISC-IV.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D700000901-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D700000901-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2>I was=20
hoping you'd explain, Kathi :-)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D700000901-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D700000901-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2>Sheila</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D700000901-21032004></SPAN><FONT face=3D"Times
New =
Roman"><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D700000901-21032004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D700000901-21032004> </SPAN>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu]<B>On =
Behalf=20
Of</B> Kathi Kearney<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, March
20, 2004 10:03=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: ASAT : The =
Best=20
Test for a 4 Year old<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px
=
solid">Glenda,=20
why is the psychologist "waiting" to use the =
SB5?<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>on=20
3/20/04 5:45 PM, Glenda Parsons at glendap@parsonsdesigns.com =
wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Hi =
All,<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>I have a 3 year old daughter who I need
=
to get=20
tested around the time she turns 4 because we are hoping for early =
entry to=20
Kindergarten next year (we are in Oz so the school year starts in =
February).=20
We have a very good centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an =
excellent=20
psychologist who tested our son last year. She is happy to =
test DD and=20
wants to use the SB-IV. This seems to be her "pet" test
to =
use.=20
Our son also had the SB-IV due to his strong VS tendencies and =
slow=20
processing.<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FONT
face=3DArial>I =
am=20
wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also =
strongly VS=20
but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having any =
LD's (my=20
son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests seem =
to be=20
favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting"
to =
use the=20
SB-V.<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FONT
face=3DArial>ANy =
input would be=20
much appreciated. <BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Thanks<BR>Glenda in=20
Oz<BR></FONT></FONT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:20:37 -0500
From: "Carolyn & Mark K." <carolyn@thehoagies.com>
Subject: ASAT: New Version Questions?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <002101c40ee2$c3250ec0$6400a8c0@coatsv01.pa.comcast.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Hi Kathi and Bobbie,
I've read a lot of questions lately about the new SB-5 and WISC versions
that I would love to know the answers to... so I'll just ask.
Is it true that the SB-5 seems to score much lower than other IQ tests,
especially for gifted kids? If it is true then what is it's value for use
with gifted kids?
We've heard a bit about the "change-sensitive" scores on the SB-5,
and that
they offer scores similar to the old SB L-M scores we've seen in the past.
Will others (schools, specialized programs, etc.) respect the observations
and differentiations between levels of giftedness potentially offered by
these scores?
What are the indicators of ceiling effects on SB-5 scores, or have no
children even hit such scores?
How do WISC-4 scores compare to previous WISC scores for gifted kids? Does
the same general rule (2 or more subtests with scores of 17-19) for reaching
ceiling levels apply to this new version?
That's enough for now. Thanks for your help in our understanding of this
new generation of tests!
Carolyn K. carolyn{at}thehoagies.com
Hoagies' Kids and Teens Page http://www.hoagieskids.org
Hoagies' Gifted Education Page http://www.hoagiesgifted.org
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:24:46 -0500 (EST)
From: JDCWilker@aol.com
Subject: ASAT: testing early elementary
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <1c7.16a2e8b6.2d8e48de@aol.com>
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I would love to know what you think is the best series of tests for a
visual/spatial thinker (almost 6). Also, at what age do you think the IQ tests
stabilize? For someone in 1st grade, are there standard, above level tests to
take? I've only found ones for after the child has started 2nd grade (which
we
are considering skipping ... thus would like advice on what one does at the
end
of 1st). I'm trying to keep these questions general enough to be of interest
to more than just me ... hope I succeeded! (And I thought my first post was
eaten by the computer gremlins ... now I know what happened)
Thanks,
Julie
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f">
<DIV>I would love to know what you think is the best series of tests for
a v=
isual/spatial thinker (almost 6). Also, at what age do you think the
I=
Q tests stabilize? For someone in 1st grade, are there standard, above=
level tests to take? I've only found ones for after the child has
sta=
rted 2nd grade (which we are considering skipping ... thus would like advice=
on what one does at the end of 1st). I'm trying to keep these questio=
ns general enough to be of interest to more than just me ... hope I succeede=
d! (And I thought my first post was eaten by the computer gremlins
...=
now I know what happened)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV>Julie</DIV></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1079832286--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:29:12 -0500
From: mblochfamily1@comcast.net
Subject: What can you learn from the SB-V
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <008c01c40ee3$eaf44aa0$020ba8c0@Blochfamily>
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Everything I have heard sounds like the SB-V scores highly gifted =
children with lower scores that the other tests. Since it is a newer =
test, it seems unlikely that the schools would be able to interpret the =
test well, so it may not be very useful for advocating for your child. =20
Is there information that can be gained by giving this test if a child =
has already taken the WISC III and is going to take the SB-LM?
Carol
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Everything I have heard sounds
like the =
SB-V scores=20
highly gifted children with lower scores that the other tests. =
Since it is=20
a newer test, it seems unlikely that the schools would be able to =
interpret the=20
test well, so it may not be very useful for advocating for your =
child. =20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is there information that can be
gained =
by giving=20
this test if a child has already taken the WISC III and is going =
to take=20
the SB-LM?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Carol</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:26:55 +1100
From: Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
Subject: RE: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200403210127.i2L1QtfO020679@mail5.tpgi.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Thanks Bobbie,
This is great info. Would you say it is better to wait until the child is 4
to do the second form? Do you think the first form gives an accurate IQ
given that it has a more limited set of subtests?
Thanks
Glenda
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
Behalf Of Barbara J. Gilman
Sent: Sunday, 21 March 2004 12:14 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
Glenda, here is one idea. We do like the new WPPSI-III (Wechsler Preschool
and Primary Scale of Intelligence-Third Edition). It has two
forms: one for children ages 2-6 (2 years 6 months) to 3-11, and one for
ages 4-0 to 7-3 (although we would give a WISC-IV at 6-0). The form for
very young children is short (4 required subtests) and only Object Assembly
is timed (rather generously). The portion for ages 4-0 and up requires 7
subtests and has a good mix of verbal and visual reasoning in a
child-friendly test (administration is more comfortable than with the
WPPSI-R for little ones). The test does have a Processing Speed Quotient,
but only one of the two subtests from which it is calculated is included in
the Full Scale IQ score. This is a visual-motor speed, handwriting-like
test. There have been improvements to the newest WPPSI for gifted children,
and we like its diagnostic properties better
Bobbie Gilman
Glenda Parsons wrote:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> I have a 3 year old daughter who I need to get tested around the time
> she turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next
> year (we are in Oz so the school year starts in February). We have a
> very good centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an excellent
> psychologist who tested our son last year. She is happy to test DD
> and wants to use the SB-IV. This seems to be her "pet" test to
use.
> Our son also had the SB-IV due to his strong VS tendencies and slow
> processing.
>
>
>
> I am wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also
> strongly VS but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having
> any LD's (my son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests
> seem to be favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting"
> to use the SB-V.
>
>
>
> ANy input would be much appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Glenda in Oz
>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:29:40 +1100
From: "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <AIENIABCBHHEMHDLJPFIAEHOCCAA.main.family@optusnet.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Hi Sally and others
I was wondering whether someone could expand on the following comment from
an article by Kara Sheehan. The comment itself is by Julia Osborn:
"Finding out which children are likely to be proficient in math and to
require educational accommodations in math instruction is one of my
essential goals in assessing extreme intelligence in children. I find that
the SB4 has two remarkably useful subtests, number series and equation
building, that permit me to observe a school age child's math reasoning and
attraction to math challenges. Unfortunately, it has one flawed subtest,
the quantitative subtest, that (due to structural problems) is not a good
indicator of math reasoning in preschool or school age children."
I would appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on why this subtest is
flawed as stated above. What does the subtest indicate, if not mathematical
proficiency and reasoning?
With thanks
Susan M down under
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:33:57 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: from Malaysia/more ideas
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CF105.40402@h2net.net>
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Sheila and Anthony,
When a child scores high on an individual IQ test we must believe that
she has the ability each correct question reflects. However, there are
many reasons why a child may score poorly. She may be uncomfortable and
not express answers she knows. She may not wish to guess if at all
uncertain. Parents may realize she is ill the evening following the
test and that she must not have been at her best.
The best evidence of her abilities is the progress you are seeing. It
may be necessary to retest her in the future with a tester experienced
with gifted children, who can spend time with her and ensure her comfort
before beginning.
If the testing was privately done, were the scores shared with her
school? If they seem unreflective of her abilities, it would be best
not to share them. Individual achievement testing may be helpful with
the acceleration issue to document her need for higher level work.
However, this should only be done with a tester your daughter trusts.
If acceleration is considered, consider one year at a time, and only if
your daughter concurs with the placement. Under these circumstances,
children usually fare very well and like their new placements. Bobbie
Gilman
Anthony Xavier wrote:
> My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly gifted"
> by and an experience Education Consultant. We were advised to take
> her for a BM-LM test or the 5th edition. We searched but could not
> find one single pscychologists with this test. Not to mention in
> Malaysia we've got only 5 PhD holders for child pyschologists. Most
> psychologists we checked with had no experience in gifted issues but
> we had no choice. She was administered the WISC III and her scores
> were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ = 109-125 and Perfomance speed 130.
> These score were total shock to us as she is now doing grade 3-4 maths
> problem solving and refusing to do anything on "+" and "-".
Finished
> her first year science book over a period of 10 days. She goes in
> extreme speed and once done, she dont want to touch it again. She
> wants something new and different. She speaks very well but we just
> cant seems to understand where it went wrong. Before the test she was
> extremely shy with the doctor and just refused to look at him but
> settled down slowly once the test beginned.
>
>
>
> The discrepancy between these score were 33 points. What is the
> significant here? The report speaks quite highly of a fluid
> intelligence but the scores dont show it. Is this 33 points
> difference is normal? What does it really show?
>
>
>
> We live in country where most are not familiar with the term
> "gifted". Even the school principal has never heard of such thing.
> The principal has seen my daughter's work and is convinced that she
> should not spend a whole year in grade 1 and that she should get a
> grade jump to third level. But we're afraid now if the test score
> will jeopodise this. We're are also not comfortable with a grade jump
> to 3rd grade, we afraid she will have socializing problem which she
> already begins to exhibit. Same problem with her 13 year old brother.
>
>
>
> Please and please share your views with us.
>
>
>
> Worried parents
>
> Sheila & Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:34:46 -0800 (PST)
From: MF <takinuva@yahoo.com>
Subject: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321013446.31363.qmail@web40308.mail.yahoo.com>
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I've read that a highly gifted child is as different from a gifted child
as a gifted child is from a child of average intelligence.
And the same goes for EG vs. HG, etc.
We have a child that hit the ceiling on 8 out of 10 subtests on the
WISC-III and we now suspect he may be EG. We want to have him
assessed further (SB L-M).
Question 1: When picking a tester, how important is it that the
person be experienced with testing children in the higher IQ ranges?
Question 2: In general, when working with specialists (such as OT's,
psychotherapists, etc.) is it important to find people that have
experience dealing with EG/PG kids? Does it really matter?
Marta
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
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<DIV>
<P>I've read that a highly gifted child is as different from a gifted
child </P>
<P>as a gifted child is from a child of average intelligence. </P>
<P>And the same goes for EG vs. HG, etc.</P>
<P>We have a child that hit the ceiling on 8 out of 10 subtests on the
</P>
<P>WISC-III and we now suspect he may be EG. We want to have him </P>
<P>assessed further (SB L-M).</P>
<P>Question 1: When picking a tester, how important is it that the </P>
<P>person be experienced with testing children in the higher IQ ranges?</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Question 2: In general, when working with specialists (such as OT's,
</P>
<P>psychotherapists, etc.) is it important to find people that have </P>
<P>experience dealing with EG/PG kids? Does it really matter?</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Marta</P></DIV><p><font face=arial size=-1>Do
you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><b>Yahoo!
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Center</a></b> - File online. File on time.
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:43:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321014307.71874.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>
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I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the Quantitative
subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make sense. Kids seemed to
reach their ceiling earlier than they should have. But this was subjective.
I
still use parts of the SB:IV, selectively, to supplement other IQ tests. -
Laurie
"main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Hi Sally and others
I was wondering whether someone could expand on the following comment from
an article by Kara Sheehan. The comment itself is by Julia Osborn:
"Finding out which children are likely to be proficient in math and to
require educational accommodations in math instruction is one of my
essential goals in assessing extreme intelligence in children. I find that
the SB4 has two remarkably useful subtests, number series and equation
building, that permit me to observe a school age child's math reasoning and
attraction to math challenges. Unfortunately, it has one flawed subtest,
the quantitative subtest, that (due to structural problems) is not a good
indicator of math reasoning in preschool or school age children."
I would appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on why this subtest is
flawed as stated above. What does the subtest indicate, if not mathematical
proficiency and reasoning?
With thanks
Susan M down under
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<DIV>I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the Quantitative
subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make sense. Kids
seemed
to reach their ceiling earlier than they should have. But this was
subjective. I still use parts of the SB:IV, selectively, to supplement
other IQ tests. - Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>"main.family"
<main.family@optusnet.com.au></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>Hi Sally and others<BR><BR>I
was wondering
whether someone could expand on the following comment from<BR>an article
by Kara
Sheehan. The comment itself is by Julia Osborn:<BR><BR>"Finding
out which
children are likely to be proficient in math and to<BR>require educational
accommodations in math instruction is one of my<BR>essential goals in
assessing
extreme intelligence in children. I find that<BR>the SB4 has two remarkably
useful subtests, number series and equation<BR>building, that permit me
to
observe a school age child's math reasoning and<BR>attraction to math
challenges. Unfortunately, it has one flawed subtest,<BR>the quantitative
subtest, that (due to structural problems) is not a good<BR>indicator
of math
reasoning in preschool or school age children."<BR><BR>I would
appreciate it if
anyone could shed some light on why this subtest is<BR>flawed as stated
above.
What
does the subtest indicate, if not mathematical<BR>proficiency and
reasoning?<BR><BR>With thanks<BR><BR>Susan M down
under<BR><BR><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 01:55:52 +0000
From: Sally_L@comcast.net
Subject: ASAT: ADMIN: Thanks to all for being patient & repost Opening Statement
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <032120040155.5410.4585@comcast.net>
Hi List Members,
Thanks to all for being patient and understanding. The server appears to be
stable and the posts are coming through just fine.
Please remember to trim your posts in responding to others to reduce the size
of
email flowing through the server, plus it is helpful for digest members, also
for those whose mailboxes are already full and bouncing messages they would
appreciate trimmed posts too.
Please remember to use the ASAT tag on the subject line:)
Be sure your available space for your email account is sufficient, so you don't
fall into "that" category. I really don't like having to delete bounced
messages. LOL
Here is a link to the Opening Statement which can be located on the website
so
you can read the nicely formatted version:)
http://www.neiu.edu/~ourgift/pages/Conference.htm
Whew, I am so glad the server is up and running and so are we:)
Again, Welcome to all!
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:50:52 -0800
From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
Subject: Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CF4FC.4000506@thegoodwins.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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MF wrote:
>
> Question 2: In general, when working with specialists (such as OT's,
>
> psychotherapists, etc.) is it important to find people that have
>
> experience dealing with EG/PG kids? Does it really matter?
>
I'm not Bobbie or Kathi, but if you don't mind my jumping in -- YES!!!
Most emphatically. Otherwise you end up with specialists who either
pathologize traits that are normal *in gifted children* or else they
tell you "oh, your child is doing fine for her/his age; maybe she/he has
emotional problems" when in fact the child is horribly frustrated at not
being able to do what she/he wants to do for their *mental* age.
Or they are bored to death and are messing with the 'expert'.
Not that I have any experience with this or anything ;-)
Corin
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:57:51 +1100
From: "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: RE: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <AIENIABCBHHEMHDLJPFICEHPCCAA.main.family@optusnet.com.au>
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Thanks Laurie for your reply. Does the sub-test give insights into any
strengths/weaknesses, or is it too poorly designed to be able to interpret
accurately? I noted with interest your comment about kids reaching their
ceiling earlier than they should have. - Susan
I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the Quantitative
subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make sense. Kids seemed to
reach their ceiling earlier than they should have. But this was subjective.
I still use parts of the SB:IV, selectively, to supplement other IQ
ests. - Laurie
"main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Hi Sally and others
I was wondering whether someone could expand on the following comment
from
an article by Kara Sheehan. The comment itself is by Julia Osborn:
"Finding out which children are likely to be proficient in math and to
require educational accommodations in math instruction is one of my
essential goals in assessing extreme intelligence in children. I find
that
the SB4 has two remarkably useful subtests, number series and equation
building, that permit me to observe a school age child's math reasoning
and
attraction to math challenges. Unfortunately, it has one flawed subtest,
the quantitative subtest, that (due to structural problems) is not a
good
indicator of math reasoning in preschool or school age children."
I would appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on why this
subtest is
flawed as stated above. What does the subtest indicate, if not
mathematical
proficiency and reasoning?
With thanks
Susan M down under
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charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D050175501-21032004></SPAN><FONT
=
size=3D2>T<SPAN=20
class=3D050175501-21032004>hanks Laurie for your reply. Does the
=
sub-test=20
give insights into any strengths/weaknesses, or is it too poorly =
designed=20
to be able to interpret accurately? I noted with interest your =
comment=20
about kids reaching their ceiling earlier than they should have. -=20
Susan</SPAN><SPAN class=3D050175501-21032004><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the =
Quantitative=20
subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make sense. =
Kids seemed=20
to reach their ceiling earlier than they should have. But this =
was=20
subjective. I still use parts of the SB:IV, selectively, to =
supplement=20
other IQ tests. - Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>"main.family"=20
<main.family@optusnet.com.au></I></B> wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
=
solid"><BR>Hi=20
Sally and others<BR><BR>I was wondering whether someone could expand
=
on the=20
following comment from<BR>an article by Kara Sheehan. The comment =
itself is=20
by Julia Osborn:<BR><BR>"Finding out which children are likely
to be =
proficient in math and to<BR>require educational accommodations in =
math=20
instruction is one of my<BR>essential goals in assessing extreme=20
intelligence in children. I find that<BR>the SB4 has two remarkably =
useful=20
subtests, number series and equation<BR>building, that permit me to =
observe=20
a school age child's math reasoning and<BR>attraction to math =
challenges.=20
Unfortunately, it has one flawed subtest,<BR>the quantitative =
subtest, that=20
(due to structural problems) is not a good<BR>indicator of math =
reasoning in=20
preschool or school age children."<BR><BR>I would appreciate
it if =
anyone=20
could shed some light on why this subtest is<BR>flawed as stated =
above. What=20
does the subtest indicate, if not mathematical<BR>proficiency and=20
reasoning?<BR><BR>With thanks<BR><BR>Susan M down=20
under<BR><BR><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus
=
Free.<BR>Checked by=20
AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).<BR>Version: 6.0.601 =
/ Virus=20
Database: 382 - Release Date: 29/02/2004<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3Darial size=3D-1>Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><B>Yahoo! Finance
Tax =
Center</A></B>=20
- File online. File on time.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C40F44.1E4752C0--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:12:39 -0800
From: Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <001901c40ee9$fc98aed0$1d361418@elisex5g0bp265>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C40EA6.EE1F86A0"
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My son scored dramatically lower on DAS than on the WISC-IV and SB-IV. I =
would also be interested in hearing about how it compares to these other =
better known tests. Our neuropsych was unfamiliar with the DAS. =
Unfortunately,the DAS was administered by our school and my son's =
artificially low (as in very low) score gave the school completely the =
wrong impression of his abilities. Is this not a good test for 2E kids =
or was this possibly just a bizarre fluke?
He has very slow processing speed on the WISC-IV (2nd percentile), but =
from what you say, it sounds like that shouldn't have affected it. I'd =
be very interested to hear how DAS is for 2E kids.
Thanks,
Elise
Is anyone in the gifted community using the DAS (DIfferential Ability =
Scales)? As an evaluator, I like this test for a number of reasons. It =
is brief, yet gives good information about verbal ability, spatial =
ability and nonverbal ability (non-verbal problem solving, or inductive =
reasoning). It does not mix more automatic tasks, such as processing =
speed and short-term memory, into the overall score, but assess these =
skills separately. It also seems to be yielding higher scores than the =
WISC-IV, which in turn yields higher scores than the SB:5. Of course, =
I've only tested a handful of students using more than one IQ test. =
And, of course, the DAS is due for revision, as it's older than the =
WISC-IV and SB:5.
Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C40EA6.EE1F86A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2737.800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My son scored dramatically lower
on DAS =
than on the=20
WISC-IV and SB-IV. I would also be interested in hearing about how it =
compares=20
to these other better known tests. Our neuropsych was unfamiliar with =
the DAS.=20
Unfortunately,the DAS was administered by our school and my son's =
artificially=20
low (as in very low) score gave the school completely the wrong =
impression of=20
his abilities. Is this not a good test for 2E kids or was this possibly =
just a=20
bizarre fluke?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He has very slow processing speed
on =
the WISC-IV=20
(2nd percentile), but from what you say, it sounds like that shouldn't =
have=20
affected it. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd be very interested
=
to hear how=20
DAS is for 2E kids.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Elise</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Is anyone in the gifted community
=
using the DAS=20
(DIfferential Ability Scales)? As an evaluator, I like this test =
for a=20
number of reasons. It is brief, yet gives good information about =
verbal=20
ability, spatial ability and nonverbal ability (non-verbal problem =
solving, or=20
inductive reasoning). It does not mix more automatic tasks, such
=
as=20
processing speed and short-term memory, into the overall score, but =
assess=20
these skills separately. It also seems to be yielding higher =
scores than=20
the WISC-IV, which in turn yields higher scores than the SB:5. =
Of=20
course, I've only tested a handful of students using more than one IQ=20
test. And, of course, the DAS is due for revision, as it's older =
than=20
the WISC-IV and SB:5.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C40EA6.EE1F86A0--
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:07:05 +0800
From: Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
Subject: ASAT: questions on the ranges of 'gifted'
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC8319C8.1A7DE%tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Thank you so much Sally, Kathy and Bobbie for convening this relevant and
very interesting conference.
I have been thinking a lot about how the bands designated for moderately,
highly, exceptionally and profoundly gifted (usually cited as Gross, 1993)
need to be revisited in light of new assessment instruments which, it would
appear, have reconstructed notions of what constitutes 'gifted' and limit
the extent to which we are able to positively identify those in the range of
extremely gifted (formerly 4 SDs+).
These new instruments appear to be limited in their ability to discriminate
between levels of giftedness due to the limited number of test items which
allow for the expression of extreme intelligence, and thus have a
deliberately embedded 'ceiling' effect. They also appear to have lowered the
threshold score for identifying children as 'gifted'. Here I note the
fallibility of identifying a child based on one test and one score,
something which is far too prevalent in school-based assessment.
So one question would be, 'at what IQ level should we now acknowledge a
child to be 'gifted'?' and 'does this vary by test instrument?', predicated
on the observation that each test is constructed differently and thus
produces unique results. Another question is 'how do we quantitatively
identify those children who are extremely gifted or have they been
conveniently 'disappeared' under the new testing regime?'.
all the best
Tracy
Pemberton, Western Australia
tracy@cycloneco.com.au
--
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm
not
sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:12:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321021224.64497.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-625073417-1079835144=:63901"
--0-625073417-1079835144=:63901
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I probably shouldn't have been answering for Kathi or Bobbi, but since you
asked
about the Quantitative (and it was a pet peeve of mine on the SB:IV), I should
also mention that I didn't use it with many gifted kids. With the kids I did
give it to, I found that they didn't get very far and I wasn't able to really
find out much about their skills. But, I have to note that I test a lot of LD
kids, so take my comments with a grain of salt! - Laurie
"main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au> wrote:Thanks Laurie
for your reply.
Does the sub-test give insights into any strengths/weaknesses, or is it too
poorly designed to be able to interpret accurately? I noted with interest your
comment about kids reaching their ceiling earlier than they should have. - Susan
I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the Quantitative
subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make sense. Kids seemed to
reach their ceiling earlier than they should have. But this was subjective.
I
still use parts of the SB:IV, selectively, to supplement other IQ tests. -
Laurie
".
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Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
--0-625073417-1079835144=:63901
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV>I probably shouldn't have been answering for Kathi or Bobbi, but
since you
asked about the Quantitative (and it was a pet peeve of mine on the SB:IV),
I
should also mention that I didn't use it with many gifted kids. With
the
kids I did give it to, I found that they didn't get very far and I wasn't able
to really find out much about their skills. But, I have to note that
I
test a lot of LD kids, so take my comments with a grain of salt! -
Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>"main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au></I></B>
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><SPAN class=050175501-21032004></SPAN><FONT
size=2>T<SPAN
class=050175501-21032004>hanks Laurie for your reply. Does the
sub-test
give insights into any strengths/weaknesses, or is it too poorly designed
to be able to interpret accurately? I noted with interest your comment
about kids reaching their ceiling earlier than they should have. -
Susan</SPAN><SPAN class=050175501-21032004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the Quantitative
subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make sense. Kids
seemed
to reach their ceiling earlier than they should have. But this was
subjective. I still use parts of the SB:IV, selectively, to supplement
other IQ tests. - Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>"</I></B><FONT
face=arial
size=-1>.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><font
face=arial
size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><b>Yahoo!
Finance Tax
Center</a></b> - File online. File on time.
--0-625073417-1079835144=:63901--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:16:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321021604.34520.qmail@web20211.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-495993596-1079835364=:33135"
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I'd really like to hear what Kathi and Bobbi have to say about the DAS. I'm
surprised about your son's scoring lower on the DAS. Can I contact you
off-list? Laurie
Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net> wrote:My son scored dramatically
lower on
DAS than on the WISC-IV and SB-IV. I would also be interested in hearing about
how it compares to these other better known tests. Our neuropsych was unfamiliar
with the DAS. Unfortunately,the DAS was administered by our school and my son's
artificially low (as in very low) score gave the school completely the wrong
impression of his abilities. Is this not a good test for 2E kids or was this
possibly just a bizarre fluke?
He has very slow processing speed on the WISC-IV (2nd percentile), but from
what
you say, it sounds like that shouldn't have affected it. I'd be very interested
to hear how DAS is for 2E kids.
Thanks,
Elise
Is anyone in the gifted community using the DAS (DIfferential Ability Scales)?
As an evaluator, I like this test for a number of reasons. It is brief, yet
gives good information about verbal ability, spatial ability and nonverbal
ability (non-verbal problem solving, or inductive reasoning). It does not mix
more automatic tasks, such as processing speed and short-term memory, into the
overall score, but assess these skills separately. It also seems to be yielding
higher scores than the WISC-IV, which in turn yields higher scores than the
SB:5. Of course, I've only tested a handful of students using more than one
IQ
test. And, of course, the DAS is due for revision, as it's older than the
WISC-IV and SB:5.
Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?
---------------------------------
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<DIV>I'd really like to hear what Kathi and Bobbi have to say about the
DAS. I'm surprised about your son's scoring lower on the DAS.
Can I
contact you off-list? Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>Elise
Craig
<elise.craig@comcast.net></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2737.800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My son scored dramatically lower on
DAS than on the
WISC-IV and SB-IV. I would also be interested in hearing about how it compares
to these other better known tests. Our neuropsych was unfamiliar with the DAS.
Unfortunately,the DAS was administered by our school and my son's artificially
low (as in very low) score gave the school completely the wrong impression of
his abilities. Is this not a good test for 2E kids or was this possibly just
a
bizarre fluke?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>He has very slow processing speed on
the WISC-IV
(2nd percentile), but from what you say, it sounds like that shouldn't have
affected it. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'd be very interested
to hear how
DAS is for 2E kids.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Elise</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Is anyone in the gifted community
using the DAS
(DIfferential Ability Scales)? As an evaluator, I like this test for
a
number of reasons. It is brief, yet gives good information about verbal
ability, spatial ability and nonverbal ability (non-verbal problem solving,
or
inductive reasoning). It does not mix more automatic tasks, such as
processing speed and short-term memory, into the overall score, but assess these
skills separately. It also seems to be yielding higher scores than
the
WISC-IV, which in turn yields higher scores than the SB:5. Of course,
I've
only tested a handful of students using more than one IQ test. And,
of
course, the DAS is due for revision, as it's older than the WISC-IV and
SB:5.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p><hr
SIZE=1>
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<a href="http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree">Protect your
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:27:34 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT waiting on the SB5
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC8267C5.C3CC%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=MS_Mac_OE_3162662855_943124_MIME_Part
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Sheila wrote:
<<<I'm not Glenda, but my 8yo was just tested with the WISC-IV at
George
Mason University. The examiner, a graduate student under the direction of
the psych guy there, said he wasn't using the SB5 because of the norms being
newer and because "you lose a few points" ??? on the SB5 compared
to the
WISC-IV.>>>>
The WISC-IV was released about six months *after* the SB5, so the norms are
about the same. . .if anything the WISC-IV norms would be a few months
"newer" than SB5!
--MS_Mac_OE_3162662855_943124_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: ASAT waiting on the SB5</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
Sheila wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><<<<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT
SIZE=3D"2"><FONT
FACE=3D"Ar=
ial">I'm not Glenda, but my 8yo was just tested with the WISC-IV at
George M=
ason University. The examiner, a graduate student under the direction
=
of the psych guy there, said he wasn't using the SB5 because of the norms be=
ing newer and because "you lose a few points" ??? on the SB5
compa=
red to the WISC-IV.</FONT></FONT></FONT>>>>><BR>
<BR>
The WISC-IV was released about six months *after* the SB5, so the norms are=
about the same. . .if anything the WISC-IV norms would be a few months &quo=
t;newer" than SB5!</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--MS_Mac_OE_3162662855_943124_MIME_Part--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:37:08 -0800
From: Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <005901c40eed$681ac780$1d361418@elisex5g0bp265>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01C40EAA.59A8CB40"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C40EAA.59A8CB40
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sure. elise.craig@comcast.net.
Thanks,
Elise
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Laurie Jensen=20
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu=20
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
I'd really like to hear what Kathi and Bobbi have to say about the =
DAS. I'm surprised about your son's scoring lower on the DAS. Can I =
contact you off-list? Laurie
Elise Craig <elise.craig@comcast.net> wrote:=20
My son scored dramatically lower on DAS than on the WISC-IV and =
SB-IV. I would also be interested in hearing about how it compares to =
these other better known tests. Our neuropsych was unfamiliar with the =
DAS. Unfortunately,the DAS was administered by our school and my son's =
artificially low (as in very low) score gave the school completely the =
wrong impression of his abilities. Is this not a good test for 2E kids =
or was this possibly just a bizarre fluke?
He has very slow processing speed on the WISC-IV (2nd percentile), =
but from what you say, it sounds like that shouldn't have affected it. =
I'd be very interested to hear how DAS is for 2E kids.
Thanks,
Elise
Is anyone in the gifted community using the DAS (DIfferential =
Ability Scales)? As an evaluator, I like this test for a number of =
reasons. It is brief, yet gives good information about verbal ability, =
spatial ability and nonverbal ability (non-verbal problem solving, or =
inductive reasoning). It does not mix more automatic tasks, such as =
processing speed and short-term memory, into the overall score, but =
assess these skills separately. It also seems to be yielding higher =
scores than the WISC-IV, which in turn yields higher scores than the =
SB:5. Of course, I've only tested a handful of students using more than =
one IQ test. And, of course, the DAS is due for revision, as it's older =
than the WISC-IV and SB:5.
Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sure. <A=20
href=3D"mailto:elise.craig@comcast.net">elise.craig@comcast.net</A>.</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Elise</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
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<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dlauriej49@yahoo.com =
href=3D"mailto:lauriej49@yahoo.com">Laurie=20
Jensen</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
=
title=3DOURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu=20
href=3D"mailto:OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu">OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday,
March 20, 2004 =
6:16=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: ASAT: Differential =
Ability=20
Scales</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I'd really like to hear what Kathi and Bobbi have to say about =
the=20
DAS. I'm surprised about your son's scoring lower on the =
DAS. Can=20
I contact you off-list? Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>Elise
Craig <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:elise.craig@comcast.net">elise.craig@comcast.net</A>></=
I></B>=20
wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
=
solid">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My son scored dramatically lower
on =
DAS than on=20
the WISC-IV and SB-IV. I would also be interested in hearing about =
how it=20
compares to these other better known tests. Our neuropsych was =
unfamiliar=20
with the DAS. Unfortunately,the DAS was administered by our school =
and my=20
son's artificially low (as in very low) score gave the school =
completely the=20
wrong impression of his abilities. Is this not a good test for 2E =
kids or=20
was this possibly just a bizarre fluke?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He has very slow processing speed
=
on the=20
WISC-IV (2nd percentile), but from what you say, it sounds like that =
shouldn't have affected it. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd
=
be very=20
interested to hear how DAS is for 2E kids.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Elise</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">Is anyone in the gifted community
=
using the=20
DAS (DIfferential Ability Scales)? As an evaluator, I like =
this test=20
for a number of reasons. It is brief, yet gives good =
information=20
about verbal ability, spatial ability and nonverbal ability =
(non-verbal=20
problem solving, or inductive reasoning). It does not mix =
more=20
automatic tasks, such as processing speed and short-term memory, =
into the=20
overall score, but assess these skills separately. It also =
seems to=20
be yielding higher scores than the WISC-IV, which in turn yields =
higher=20
scores than the SB:5. Of course, I've only tested a handful =
of=20
students using more than one IQ test. And, of course, the =
DAS is due=20
for revision, as it's older than the WISC-IV and SB:5.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted =
assessment?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR SIZE=3D1>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:33:28 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: New Version Questions?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405CFEF8.3060405@h2net.net>
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Hi Carolyn,
Let me tackle the WISC-IV portion and let Kathi take the SB5.
The WISC-IV is yielding many gifted-level scores at the GDC. However,
some of the Full Scale IQ scores are excessively lowered by Working
Memory and Processing Speed scores. As intelligence is primarily
abstract reasoning ability, emphasizing short-term auditory memory and
processing speed on paper-and-pencil tests is less helpful.
The WISC-IV has eliminated the Verbal IQ and Performance IQ scores of
its predecessors. The 10 required subtests (5 are supplementary) yield
a Full Scale IQ score and four Composite scores: Verbal Comprehension,
Perceptual Reasoning, Working Memory, and Processing Speed. These
correspond to Index scores calculated on the WISC-III. The Verbal
Comprehension and Perceptual Reasoning portions are excellent for gifted
children, in that they emphasize verbal abstract reasoning and visual
abstract and visual-spatial reasoning. They have added more difficult
items to a number of subtests, which extends the ceiling of the subtests
and reduces the problem of some older children being unable to earn the
highest subtest scaled score (19) simply because of age. Only in one
subtest, Word Reasoning, did I see this was possible and not until age
14. Word Reasoning is a supplementary subtest not required for the
above scores. Perceptual Reasoning additionally is giving us nice
information on visual/visual-spatial abilities with less timing.
However, two Working Memory subtests (only one was required on the
WISC-III) and two Processing Speed subtests (only one was required on
the WISC-III) place more weight on these processing skills in the Full
Scale IQ score. This is unfortunate for gifted children and confounds
the FSIQ as a gifted identifier at times.
In the normative sample for the WISC-IV, the gifted group (which had
scored at least 130 previously) earned a Full Scale IQ score of 123.5 on
the WISC-IV. Their Verbal Comprehension score was 124.7 and Perceptual
Reasoning score was 120.4. However, in line with our experience, their
Working Memory averaged only 112.5 and their Processing Speed was 110.6
(WISC-IV Technical Manual p. 77).
Watch how this can affect scores.
One girl, age 9-10 earned these scores
VC- 148
PR -147
WM- 123
PS- 123
FSIQ- 147 Note her lower Working Memory and Processing Speed didn't
lower her FSIQ.
But look at these two, who earned FSIQs of 127 and 125
VC- 119
PR- 127
WM-126
PS- 112
FSIQ- 127
and
VC- 140
PR- 123
WM- 107
PS- 97
FSIQ- 125
This latter child with the Verbal Comprehension score of 140 (often the
best indicator of success in a gifted classroom) really needs to be
identified as gifted and her WM and PS scores lower her FSIQ.
The best solution is to use the Verbal Comprhension and Perceptual
Reasoning Composites for gifted identification and not insist on the
FSIQ. Using the Composites of the new test, it has much to offer
testing gifted children.
We are still recommending re-testing on a test with a higher ceiling
when children earn two or more scores of 17-19 on the Verbal
Comprehension subtests. We are evaluating this and it appears to be
working well with the new test.
There is a lot more I would like to say about Working Memory and
Processing Speed, but will delay that until later.
Hope this helps.
Bobbie Gilman
Carolyn & Mark K. wrote:
> Hi Kathi and Bobbie,
>
> I've read a lot of questions lately about the new SB-5 and WISC versions
> that I would love to know the answers to... so I'll just ask.
>
> Is it true that the SB-5 seems to score much lower than other IQ tests,
> especially for gifted kids? If it is true then what is it's value for use
> with gifted kids?
>
> We've heard a bit about the "change-sensitive" scores on the
SB-5, and that
> they offer scores similar to the old SB L-M scores we've seen in the past.
> Will others (schools, specialized programs, etc.) respect the observations
> and differentiations between levels of giftedness potentially offered by
> these scores?
>
> What are the indicators of ceiling effects on SB-5 scores, or have no
> children even hit such scores?
>
> How do WISC-4 scores compare to previous WISC scores for gifted kids? Does
> the same general rule (2 or more subtests with scores of 17-19) for reaching
> ceiling levels apply to this new version?
>
> That's enough for now. Thanks for your help in our understanding of this
> new generation of tests!
>
> Carolyn K. carolyn{at}thehoagies.com
> Hoagies' Kids and Teens Page http://www.hoagieskids.org
> Hoagies' Gifted Education Page http://www.hoagiesgifted.org
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:38:33 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D0029.6070509@h2net.net>
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Hi Glenda,
If you can wait, the form for 4-year-olds will provide a richer
evaluation. However, I was pleased to see a reasonable test for very
young children that didn't "overtax" them. :)
Glenda Parsons wrote:
> Thanks Bobbie,
>
> This is great info. Would you say it is better to wait until the child
is 4
> to do the second form? Do you think the first form gives an accurate IQ
> given that it has a more limited set of subtests?
>
> Thanks
> Glenda
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
> Behalf Of Barbara J. Gilman
> Sent: Sunday, 21 March 2004 12:14 PM
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: ASAT : The Best Test for a 4 Year old
>
> Glenda, here is one idea. We do like the new WPPSI-III (Wechsler Preschool
> and Primary Scale of Intelligence-Third Edition). It has two
> forms: one for children ages 2-6 (2 years 6 months) to 3-11, and one for
> ages 4-0 to 7-3 (although we would give a WISC-IV at 6-0). The form for
> very young children is short (4 required subtests) and only Object Assembly
> is timed (rather generously). The portion for ages 4-0 and up requires
7
> subtests and has a good mix of verbal and visual reasoning in a
> child-friendly test (administration is more comfortable than with the
> WPPSI-R for little ones). The test does have a Processing Speed Quotient,
> but only one of the two subtests from which it is calculated is included
in
> the Full Scale IQ score. This is a visual-motor speed, handwriting-like
> test. There have been improvements to the newest WPPSI for gifted children,
> and we like its diagnostic properties better
>
> Bobbie Gilman
>
> Glenda Parsons wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a 3 year old daughter who I need to get tested around the time
>> she turns 4 because we are hoping for early entry to Kindergarten next
>> year (we are in Oz so the school year starts in February). We have
a
>> very good centre here in Sydney (GERRIC) with an excellent
>> psychologist who tested our son last year. She is happy to test DD
>> and wants to use the SB-IV. This seems to be her "pet" test
to use.
>> Our son also had the SB-IV due to his strong VS tendencies and slow
>> processing.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am wondering if the SB-IV is the best choice for my DD who is also
>> strongly VS but also very verbal. She shows no signs yet of having
>> any LD's (my son has CAPD and SID). I know is US the WPSII/WISC tests
>> seem to be favoured above the SB's. The psych here is also "waiting"
>> to use the SB-V.
>>
>>
>>
>> ANy input would be much appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Glenda in Oz
>>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 18:56:03 -0800
From: Cathy S <cathy@bowchow.com>
Subject: Re: ASAT: SB 5
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D0443.D2B3E78E@bowchow.com>
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It appears to me that the SB-V is seemingly going to be useless for
identifying gifted children unless they manage to redefine giftedness.
According to the article posted on their site about interpreting results for
gifted children, which Riverside must agree with since they posted in on
their website, gifted appears to now be around an IQ of 120. The first
example talked about a girl with an IQ of 118 whose age equivalents ranged
from 3 years above her age to 17 years. A SAS of 123 was all she received at
11 when she tested as a 28 year old. In "talking" the article made
it clear
this child should and needed to be in gifted programs and receive
accelerated curriculum, but what school district is going to accept that!!!
Their own chart says it takes a 131 to be considered gifted. Later when
discussing a particular child they actually say that their IQ of 122 equates
to a 145 or so on the SB-LM so they should be allowed in the gifted program
and the child "appears to be moderately to highly gifted compared to other
children her age". So they are saying that for consideration of whether
or
not you are gifted you should compare the scores to what they would have
gotten on the LM??? Why not just make the scores right!! What school
district is going to say well on the SB-V you need a 120 to qualify for the
gifted program but on other tests you need a 130 or more??
What about the first grader who had an age equivalent of 11 years old and
tested at 131. This is obviously a kid who needs a very advanced program yet
any school district, based on IQ score, would barely consider her for
acceptance to a gifted program, much less a highly gifted program. What a
disservice for these children, and they appear to acknowledge that the IQ
score does NOT define who needs a gifted program it is the AE score.
At the end they specifically call a child (5.9 if I remember correctly with
age equivalents of more than twice his age) profoundly gifted, YET the IQ is
141 I think. This wouldn't even qualify them for a highly gifted magnet
program or private school. On their own scale it should take a 176 to be
profoundly gifted, they are contradicting themselves!!
The other thing I noticed was that a few point difference in score made a 2
to 4 year difference in age equivalents. A total of 70 points on a 500+
point scale means the difference from testing as a 2year old to an adult. I
don't think anyone is going to be able to use this test to determine if
their child is gifted, much less levels of giftedness. I also doubt too many
schools will forget the "numbers" and determine needs by age equivalents,
that would assume they knew what they were doing. What a complete
disappointment!! I truly wonder what people will do.
Cathy
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:44:41 -0500
From: "Carolyn & Mark K." <carolyn@thehoagies.com>
Subject: RE: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <004101c40eee$75ddec20$6400a8c0@coatsv01.pa.comcast.net>
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>> Question 2: In general, when working with specialists (such as OT's
>> psychotherapists, etc.) is it important to find people that have
>> experience dealing with EG/PG kids? Does it really matter?
>I'm not Bobbie or Kathi, but if you don't mind my jumping in -- YES!!!
>Most emphatically. Otherwise you end up with specialists who either
>pathologize traits that are normal *in gifted children* or else they
>tell you "oh, your child is doing fine for her/his age; maybe she/he
has
>emotional problems" when in fact the child is horribly frustrated at
not
>being able to do what she/he wants to do for their *mental* age.
>
>Or they are bored to death and are messing with the 'expert'.
I agree wholeheartedly with Corin, except... I've had very good luck with
professionals (so far, vision, speech, and auditory processing) who would
not have billed themselves as familiar with the gifted. Turned out, in each
case, that they were (and were themselves, and their kids), but they were
not aware of how important that was, or how important that understanding was
to treating our kids appropriately. They assumed (sounds gifted to me) that
*all* professionals in their fields would be as observant, caring, etc.
(Yes, they are wrong, but I've made similar assumptions about "all parents"
and "all kids" so I know where they're coming from).
In each case, the key to appropriate care was their knowledge that a child's
development is linked not only to his / her age, but to his / her
achievement levels. The COVD insisted that, instead of a goal of 50th
percentile, she needed to work to a goal of 90th percentile in each area "so
that her vision wouldn't be a area of personal frustration" in comparison
to
her intellect (which, during testing, he guessed at, not so inaccurately).
And the audiologist had found "a center in the Rockies that had some
interesting observations" (she found GDC during her personal research!).
The speech therapist was the most subtle of all, but still, the child
enjoyed and benefited greatly from her time in speech therapy, and the
therapist asked many, many interesting questions about the child and her
sister, and geared her therapy assuming the child was equally as bright as
her sister (then twice-grade skipped, etc).
So yes, it matters, but no, they don't necessarily need to bill themselves
as "gifted experts." It can be more subtle than that. But they must
understand!
(Not that I've had any experience in it, either <grin>.)
Carolyn K. carolyn{at}thehoagies.com
Hoagies' Kids and Teens Page http://www.hoagieskids.org
Hoagies' Gifted Education Page http://www.hoagiesgifted.org
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:53:06 -0500
From: "R.J. Herbison" <wubison@optonline.net>
Subject: assessments for pace? (was Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D0392.9070203@optonline.net>
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From Kathi's reply:
Thank you for the Woodcock Johnson III suggestion.
>The idea is to match her up with instruction at an appropriate instructional
>level for her (and instruction that moves at an appropriate pace for her).
>
>
I can see how a test/assessment could suggest an instructional level, do
they also suggest an instructional pace? I suspect that compaction is
even harder to campaign for than acceleration. Does any particular kind
of assessment or test (directly) support that?
yes, I know some people already 'get' that bright kids probably need to
be taught, or helped to learn, differently but that is not yet obvious
to all teachers. I am anticipating that alot of effort and education
will be needed for dd's current teacher & alot, but perhaps not as much,
for the school administration. The teacher told me that they did not
want to test dd until she could not do the work b/c *they* did not want
to set her up for failure. After their testing, her teacher said, "5th
grade instructional level ... we are doing a 8-12 year old RL book so
that is OK." The teacher also said she would not be comfortable using
a book that was labled 13 [years] or higher with a child in her class.
The head of school said that they use "enrichment" for gifted children.
I did not ask what they did for HG/EG/PG kids, I plan to f/u and see
what "enrichment" actually means.
We are already careful about what we let dd read but thank you for the
reminder. My pre-reading load keeps growing.
r.j.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:59:53 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D0529.50308@h2net.net>
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Hi Marta,
Comments are as follows:
MF wrote:
> We have a child that hit the ceiling on 8 out of 10 subtests on the
>
> WISC-III and we now suspect he may be EG. We want to have him
>
> assessed further (SB L-M).
>
> Question 1: When picking a tester, how important is it that the
>
> person be experienced with testing children in the higher IQ ranges?
>
It is very important. Children at this level have the characteristics
of giftedness, only to more extreme degrees. They will respond best to
testers who are familiar with these traits and enjoy them. Testers who
are also familiar with their response styles will know when to speed up
the administration to accommodate a child who needs a very fast pace
(and will lose focus without it), and when to slow down to accommodate
the child who offers an initial answer, then continues to "hone" it
to
perfection. I have seen experienced testers of more average children
test their first exceptionally gifted child and make mistakes for lack
of experience with this population. I have observed a tester hearing an
initial answer, rushing to administer the next question, and "training
in" a short-answer response style, which lowers such a child's score.
> Question 2: In general, when working with specialists (such as OT's,
>
> psychotherapists, etc.) is it important to find people that have
>
> experience dealing with EG/PG kids? Does it really matter?
>
It certainly helps. One behavioral optometrist in the Denver area says
flatly, "gifted children should have gifted vision" and knows to
continue vision therapy longer with more gifted children to support
their other extraordinary abilities. A local hospital has realized that
with gifted children, it is benefitting them to undertake OT when their
tests indicate less need than the hospital usually recommends therapy
for. It is the discrepancy that is important, so the more the
specialist understands about gifted children (including the higher
levels), the better. When counseling or psychotherapy is involved, it
is important to understand the differences of these children and to
avoid simply counseling them to "fit in."
Bobbie
> Marta
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center <http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html> -
File
> online. File on time.
>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:08:20 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
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Julie had several questions. She wrote:
<<<<I would love to know what you think is the best series of tests
for a
visual/spatial thinker (almost 6).>>>>>
SB5, for the visual-spatial factor score. Probably WISC-IV, as well. (Laurie
Jensen, who has already posted, I think, likes portions of the DAS for this
-- Laurie, feel free to chime in about why).
Julie also asked:
<<<<Also, at what age do you think the IQ tests stabilize?>>>>>
What do you mean by "stabilize"?
Julie continued:
<<<<For someone in 1st grade, are there standard, above level tests
to take?
I've only found ones for after the child has started 2nd grade (which we are
considering skipping ... thus would like advice on what one does at the end
of 1st).>>>>
You must mean the talent search tests offered by organizations like the
Center for Talented Youth at Johns Hopkins. They begin offering out of level
testing using the SCAT (School and College Ability Test) in second grade.
The PLUS test is used as an out of level test for their Young Students
Talent Search in 5th and 6th grades, and the SAT-I college entrance exam is
used for their 7th grade talent search. Other university-based talent
searches covering students in other parts of the country use different
tests. The Belin-Blank Center for the Gifted at the University of Iowa uses
the EXPLORE test, an 8th grade test published by ACT, as an out of level
test with 2nd through 6th graders, and they use the ACT for their 7th grade
talent search.
But you do not have to wait til she's old enough for the talent searches to
use a standard, "above-level" test. The major individual achievement
tests
on the market today -- the WJ-III, K-TEA, PIAT, WIAT, etc. -- extend from
kindergarten or first grade level through 12th grade (and the WJ-III has
norms from preschool through college). The purpose of the talent search "out
of level" tests in the first place is to take children who are scoring
at
the very top of grade-level achievement tests and give them a test for older
children -- in other words, raise the ceiling of the test -- to see how they
do. The individual achievement tests have that higher ceiling built in,
since they were designed for students of a wide variety of ages and grades.
Still another option is for your first-grader to take a group achievement
test, such as the Iowa Test of Basic Skills or the Stanford Achievement
Test, as an "out of level" test -- in other words, have her take
the third
grade test, and compare her scores with third grade students to see how she
does. Often a school will agree to do this if it's convenient for the child
to sit with the older students during the time the test is administered; it
shouldn't cost them much extra to run the extra set of scores.
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Julie had several questions. She wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><<<<I would love to know what
you think is the best=
series of tests for a visual/spatial thinker (almost 6).>>>>>=
;<BR>
<BR>
SB5, for the visual-spatial factor score. Probably WISC-IV, as well. (Lauri=
e Jensen, who has already posted, I think, likes portions of the DAS for thi=
s -- Laurie, feel free to chime in about why).<BR>
<BR>
Julie also asked:<BR>
<BR>
<<<<Also, at what age do you think the IQ tests
stabilize?>&=
gt;>>><BR>
<BR>
What do you mean by "stabilize"?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Julie continued:<BR>
<BR>
<<<<For someone in 1st grade, are there standard,
above level t=
ests to take? I've only found ones for after the child has started
2nd=
grade (which we are considering skipping ... thus would like advice on what=
one does at the end of 1st).>>>><BR>
<BR>
You must mean the talent search tests offered by organizations like the Cen=
ter for Talented Youth at Johns Hopkins. They begin offering out of level te=
sting using the SCAT (School and College Ability Test) in second grade. The
=
PLUS test is used as an out of level test for their Young Students Talent Se=
arch in 5th and 6th grades, and the SAT-I college entrance exam is used for
=
their 7th grade talent search. Other university-based talent searches coveri=
ng students in other parts of the country use different tests. The Belin-Bla=
nk Center for the Gifted at the University of Iowa uses the EXPLORE test, an=
8th grade test published by ACT, as an out of level test with 2nd through 6=
th graders, and they use the ACT for their 7th grade talent search.<BR>
<BR>
But you do not have to wait til she's old enough for the talent searches to=
use a standard, "above-level" test. The major individual achievem=
ent tests on the market today -- the WJ-III, K-TEA, PIAT, WIAT, etc. -- exte=
nd from kindergarten or first grade level through 12th grade (and the WJ-III=
has norms from preschool through college). The purpose of the talent search=
"out of level" tests in the first place is to take children
who a=
re scoring at the very top of grade-level achievement tests and give them a
=
test for older children -- in other words, raise the ceiling of the test --
=
to see how they do. The individual achievement tests have that higher ceilin=
g built in, since they were designed for students of a wide variety of ages
=
and grades.<BR>
<BR>
Still another option is for your first-grader to take a group achievement t=
est, such as the Iowa Test of Basic Skills or the Stanford Achievement Test,=
as an "out of level" test -- in other words, have her take
the th=
ird grade test, and compare her scores with third grade students to see how
=
she does. Often a school will agree to do this if it's convenient for the ch=
ild to sit with the older students during the time the test is administered;=
it shouldn't cost them much extra to run the extra set of scores.</BLOCKQUO=
TE>
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:09:06 +1100
From: "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <AIENIABCBHHEMHDLJPFIKEIBCCAA.main.family@optusnet.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
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" I probably shouldn't have been answering for Kathi or Bobbi, but since
you asked about the Quantitative (and it was a pet peeve of mine on the
SB:IV), I should also mention that I didn't use it with many gifted kids.
With the kids I did give it to, I found that they didn't get very far and I
wasn't able to really find out much about their skills. But, I have to note
that I test a lot of LD kids, so take my comments with a grain of salt! -
Laurie "
Would you say that these problems with the quantitative subtest therefore
mean the score in this part of the SB-IV should be ignored or not used in
calculating the FSIQ? Is the information obtained in this subtest still
useful for making recommendations re subject acceleration?
---
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2> " </FONT></SPAN>I probably
shouldn't have been =
answering for=20
Kathi or Bobbi, but since you asked about the Quantitative (and it was a =
pet=20
peeve of mine on the SB:IV), I should also mention that I didn't use it =
with=20
many gifted kids. With the kids I did give it to, I found that =
they didn't=20
get very far and I wasn't able to really find out much about their =
skills. =20
But, I have to note that I test a lot of LD kids, so take my comments =
with a=20
grain of salt! - Laurie<SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2> "</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2>Would=20
you say that these problems with the quantitative subtest therefore=20
mean the score in this part of the SB-IV should be ignored or not =
used in=20
calculating the FSIQ?</FONT> <FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2> Is the=20
information obtained in this subtest still useful for making =
recommendations re=20
subject acceleration?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D360430203-21032004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:18:48 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: What can you learn from the SB-V
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC8273C7.C3CF%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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boundary=MS_Mac_OE_3162665928_1127963_MIME_Part
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Carol wrote:
<<<<Everything I have heard sounds like the SB-V scores highly
gifted
children with lower scores that the other tests. Since it is a newer test,
it seems unlikely that the schools would be able to interpret the test well,
so it may not be very useful for advocating for your child. >>>>>
I'd like to be fair to the school employees and school psychologists here --
as well as anyone else who is assessing children, including individual
psychologists in private practice, and anyone else who is trying to make
sense of the results. What has happened in the last 18 to 24 months in the
testing business is pretty much unprecedented (at least since the 1920s).
Almost all of the major assessments used to test preschool and school-age
children ended up being revised all at the same time, within a two-year
period. Some of the major instruments, including the WPPSI-III, WISC-IV and
the SB5, underwent fairly significant changes from previous editions. I
think almost everyone who administers these instruments or who uses the
results of testing as part of decision-making about placement and
interventions has some unanswered questions at this point, whether they are
working with gifted children or children with disabilities. Usually
following release of a new revision of a test, research about use of the
test with various populations is conducted by individuals and groups,
written up, and submitted to refereed journals in psychology and education.
That process takes time -- generally, more than a year to go through the
data collection, writing, submitting, reviewing, rewriting, resubmitting,
editing, and publishing processes. Thus, it's likely that we'll still have
to wait another year or so for a large body of research about the new tests
to emerge in refereed journals.
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Carol wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><<<<<FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT
FACE=3D"Arial">Everything I =
have heard sounds like the SB-V scores highly gifted children with lower sco=
res that the other tests. Since it is a newer test, it seems unlikely
=
that the schools would be able to interpret the test well, so it may not be
=
very useful for advocating for your child. >>>>><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT>I'd like to be fair to the school employees and school
psycho=
logists here -- as well as anyone else who is assessing children, including
=
individual psychologists in private practice, and anyone else who is trying
=
to make sense of the results. What has happened in the last 18 to 24 months
=
in the testing business is pretty much unprecedented (at least since the 192=
0s). Almost all of the major assessments used to test preschool and school-a=
ge children ended up being revised all at the same time, within a two-year p=
eriod. Some of the major instruments, including the WPPSI-III, WISC-IV and t=
he SB5, underwent fairly significant changes from previous editions. I think=
almost everyone who administers these instruments or who uses the results o=
f testing as part of decision-making about placement and interventions has s=
ome unanswered questions at this point, whether they are working with gifted=
children or children with disabilities. Usually following release of a new =
revision of a test, research about use of the test with various populations
=
is conducted by individuals and groups, written up, and submitted to referee=
d journals in psychology and education. That process takes time -- generally=
, more than a year to go through the data collection, writing, submitting, r=
eviewing, rewriting, resubmitting, editing, and publishing processes. Thus,
=
it's likely that we'll still have to wait another year or so for a large bod=
y of research about the new tests to emerge in refereed journals. <FON=
T SIZE=3D"2"> <BR>
</FONT> <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:18:37 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT:How do you locate an approriate testor?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D098D.9030601@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Hi Tommya,
Try these sources:
www.educationaladvancement.org
www.hoagiesgifted.org
Be choosy. You want a good testing situation for your child that offers
the best opportunity to document his abilities. Look for people who
like working with these children, have high standards of
professionalism, and write reports you will feel comfortable using on a
number of occasions for placement decisions and program admission. :)
Bobbie Gilman
TOMMYA COSCO RODGERS wrote:
> How do I locate an appropriate person to administer assessment tests for
our
> DD. We live in Southern California, I never expected this much challenge.
> On testor my DH and I met was so clearly the wrong person, I can't believe
I
> even thought about it for a minute.
> Where do I look? What questions should I ask?
>
> THANK YOU
> M's Mom
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:27:22 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC8275CA.C3DE%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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boundary=MS_Mac_OE_3162666443_1158888_MIME_Part
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Marta wrote:
<<<<<Question 2: In general, when working with specialists (such as OT's,
psychotherapists, etc.) is it important to find people that have
experience dealing with EG/PG kids? Does it really matter? >>>>>
It's really helpful with specialists like OT's, and absolutely essential
with a counselor or psychotherapist. Not only does a counselor or
psychotherapist need to understand characteristics of giftedness, but it's
easy for a very gifted child to out-think and out-maneuver many
psychotherapists and counselors (sometimes, unfortunately, without the
counselor knowing it).
Although this is not a conference about counseling the gifted, I'd strongly
recommend the book "Counseling the Gifted and Talented" edited by
Linda
Silverman. (And for some theatrical insight on this topic, I recommend the
movie "Good Will Hunting.")
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Marta wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<<<<<Question 2: In general, when working
with specialists (=
such as OT's, <BR>
<BR>
psychotherapists, etc.) is it important to find people that have <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE>experience dealing with EG/PG kids? Does it really matter?
>=
;>>>><BR>
<BR>
It's really helpful with specialists like OT's, and absolutely essential wi=
th a counselor or psychotherapist. Not only does a counselor or psychotherap=
ist need to understand characteristics of giftedness, but it's easy for a ve=
ry gifted child to out-think and out-maneuver many psychotherapists and coun=
selors (sometimes, unfortunately, without the counselor knowing it).<BR>
<BR>
Although this is not a conference about counseling the gifted, I'd strongly=
recommend the book "Counseling the Gifted and Talented" edited
by=
Linda Silverman. (And for some theatrical insight on this topic, I recommen=
d the movie "Good Will Hunting.")
</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 19:28:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Laurie Jensen <lauriej49@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321032850.38351.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Thanks, Kathi, for inviting me to respond. The DAS has six "Core"
subtests
which are used to compute a General Conceptual Ability score (IQ by another
name). Two subtests tap Verbal Ability, two tap Spatial Ability, and two tap
Nonverbal Ability (fluid reasoning, or inductive reasoning using nonverbal
stimuli). The School-Age version usually starts at age 6, but can extend lower.
An actual Spatial Reasoning score doesn't emerge until about 6 years old (mental
age).
The DAS is different from the SB:5 and WISC-IV due to its different loadings
on
the total score. The Verbal is 1/3 of the score, Spatial is 1/3, and Nonverbal
is 1/3. There are three other "Diagnostic Subtests" in the School-Age
Version
(6 - 17 years): processing speed and two short-term memory subtests. But they
are are considered to be more automatic tasks and are not considered to be
measures of "g", or general intelligence. So, there is no working
memory or
processing speed to contaminate the total score.
There is a pre-school version which most psychologists feel that young children
enjoy. The non-verbal tasks are fun for most kids.
The DAS does not provide as much information on verbal reasoning as do the SB:5
and WISC-IV, however. Their verbal reasoning is, I think, more related to word
knowledge and concepts and doesn't involve lengthy verbal input or require
lengthy verbal output (although some kids give it, anyhow!).
Laurie Jensen
<<<<I would love to know what you think is the best series of tests
for a
visual/spatial thinker (almost 6).>>>>>
SB5, for the visual-spatial factor score. Probably WISC-IV, as well. (Laurie
Jensen, who has already posted, I think, likes portions of the DAS for this
--
Laurie, feel free to chime in about why).
.
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
--0-1992667060-1079839730=:35875
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV><BR> Thanks, Kathi, for inviting me to respond.
The DAS has six
"Core" subtests which are used to compute a General Conceptual Ability
score (IQ
by another name). Two subtests tap Verbal Ability, two tap Spatial
Ability, and two tap Nonverbal Ability (fluid reasoning, or inductive reasoning
using nonverbal stimuli). The School-Age version usually starts at
age 6,
but can extend lower. An actual Spatial Reasoning score doesn't emerge
until about 6 years old (mental age). </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The DAS is different from the SB:5 and WISC-IV due to its different
loadings on the total score. The Verbal is 1/3 of the score, Spatial
is
1/3, and Nonverbal is 1/3. There are three other "Diagnostic
Subtests" in
the School-Age Version (6 - 17 years): processing speed and two short-term
memory subtests. But they are are considered to be more automatic
tasks
and are not considered to be measures of "g", or general intelligence.
So,
there is no working memory or processing speed to contaminate the total
score.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is a pre-school version which most psychologists feel that
young
children enjoy. The non-verbal tasks are fun for most kids.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The DAS does not provide as much information on verbal reasoning
as do the
SB:5 and WISC-IV, however. Their verbal reasoning is, I think, more
related to word knowledge and concepts and doesn't involve lengthy verbal input
or require lengthy verbal output (although some kids give it, anyhow!).
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Laurie Jensen<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><<<<I would love to know what
you think is the best
series of tests for a visual/spatial thinker (almost
6).>>>>><BR><BR>SB5, for the
visual-spatial factor score.
Probably WISC-IV, as well. (Laurie Jensen, who has already posted, I think,
likes portions of the DAS for this -- Laurie, feel free to chime in about
why).<BR><BR>.</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><p><font
face=arial size=-1>Do you
Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><b>Yahoo!
Finance Tax
Center</a></b> - File online. File on time.
--0-1992667060-1079839730=:35875--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:41:36 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: assessments for pace? (was Re: ASAT: - Opening Statement
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC827920.C3E0%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
RJ asked:
> I can see how a test/assessment could suggest an instructional level,
do
> they also suggest an instructional pace? I suspect that compaction is
> even harder to campaign for than acceleration. Does any particular kind
> of assessment or test (directly) support that?>>>>
I will tell you what I use for curriculum assessment that takes care of the
pacing issue, at least in math. I use a modified form of the Johns Hopkins
diagnostic testing/prescriptive instruction model that is used for
instruction in the CTY summer programs with 7th graders (where a
mathematically talented 7th grader often finishes ALL of Algebra I in three
weeks).
Preferably I have a math series that provides two separate, alternate
chapter tests for each chapter. I pretest with one of the chapter tests, and
correct the chapter test. If the child has a score of 85 to 90% or higher, I
move to the next chapter test, until I reach a chapter where the child is
getting a score less than 85%. At that point I analyze which skills and
concepts the child missed, and teach only those skills and concepts,
assigning appropriate practice until I am sure the child knows the material.
After that, I give the alternate chapter test as a post-test, and move on.
This takes care of appropriate pacing.
I am teaching two mathematically talented students this way right now.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:43:30 -0500 (EST)
From: JDCWilker@aol.com
Subject: Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <a8.29a0579e.2d8e6962@aol.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
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boundary=-----------------------------1079840610
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In a message dated 3/20/2004 7:10:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kkearney@ttlc.net writes:
Julie also asked:
<<<<Also, at what age do you think the IQ tests stabilize?>>>>>
What do you mean by "stabilize"?
When we took the last set of assessment tests, the first day went well, the
second did not (he was having an off day - SID/APD) so the thought was to wait
until later to perhaps get a better reading on the IQ as that was on day 2.
I'd rather only go back for the test once, so I am trying to time things so
they might benefit school placement but also so that the assessment is likely
more true to his potential. So for me, stabilize is when most kids seem to be
able to handle the whole round of tests - where people think another test
probably will not show differently. Perhaps I am dreaming.
Thank you much for the insights in your answer.
Julie
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rset=3DUS-ASCII">
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<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#fffff=
f">
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/20/2004 7:10:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, kkearney=
@ttlc.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>Julie also asked:<BR><BR><<<<Also,=
at what age do you think the IQ tests stabilize?>>>>><BR><BR=
>What do you mean by "stabilize"?</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>When we took the last set of assessment tests, the first day went
well,=
the second did not (he was having an off day - SID/APD) so the thought was=20=
to wait until later to perhaps get a better reading on the IQ as that was on=
day 2. I'd rather only go back for the test once, so I am
tryin=
g to time things so they might benefit school placement but also so that the=
assessment is likely more true to his potential. So for me, stabilize=
is when most kids seem to be able to handle the whole round of tests - wher=
e people think another test probably will not show differently. Perhap=
s I am dreaming.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thank you much for the insights in your answer.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Julie</DIV></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1079840610--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:43:38 -0500 (EST)
From: LWalshETAL@aol.com
Subject: Re: What can you learn from the SB-V
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20.24cdc9a5.2d8e696a@aol.com>
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In a message dated 04/03/20 21:33:23, kkearney@ttlc.net writes:
> Usually following release of a new revision of a test, research about use=20
> of the test with various populations is conducted by individuals and group=
s,=20
> written up, and submitted to refereed journals in psychology and education=
.=20
> That process takes time -- generally, more than a year to go through the
d=
ata=20
> collection, writing, submitting, reviewing, rewriting, resubmitting, editi=
ng,=20
> and publishing processes. Thus, it's likely that we'll still have to wait=20
> another year or so for a large body of research about the new tests to
eme=
rge in=20
> refereed journals. =A0
>=20
I am concerned about the immediate effect of the new lower scores on
acceptance into established gifted programs. When I was administering
a gifted program, I had to establish multiple criteria for acceptance into
the gifted program. My district insisted that an ability score be one of
the criteria (they wanted an objective measure). With the new, lower
scores, far fewer children will qualify for the program. Since Illinois ha=
s
now lost funding for gifted, I am afraid that districts will say, in effect,
see, there isn't any more need for gifted programming - those other scores
were inflated and, anyway, we can't afford it any more. How can we
counteract this? (I am no longer in that school district, the district=20
dropped
their gifted program, so it is moot with me, but I am afraid that this will=20
happen elsewhere.)
Laura Walsh LWalshETAL@aol.com
[apologies for HTML coding, if it is here - AOL won't let me get rid of it.]
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eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
In a message dated 04/03/20 21:33:23, kkearney@ttlc.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT:
5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE=3D"CITE"></FONT><FONT
COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">Usually
following rel=
ease of a new revision of a test, research about use of the test with variou=
s populations is conducted by individuals and groups, written up, and submit=
ted to refereed journals in psychology and education. That process takes tim=
e -- generally, more than a year to go through the data collection, writing,=
submitting, reviewing, rewriting, resubmitting, editing, and publishing pro=
cesses. Thus, it's likely that we'll still have to wait another year or so f=
or a large body of research about the new tests to emerge in refereed journa=
ls. =A0<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva"
FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
I am concerned about the immediate effect of the new lower scores on<BR>
acceptance into established gifted programs. When I was administering=
<BR>
a gifted program, I had to establish multiple criteria for acceptance into<B=
R>
the gifted program. My district insisted that an ability score be
one=
of<BR>
the criteria (they wanted an objective measure). With the new, lower<=
BR>
scores, far fewer children will qualify for the program. Since Illino=
is has<BR>
now lost funding for gifted, I am afraid that districts will say, in effect,=
<BR>
see, there isn't any more need for gifted programming - those other scores<B=
R>
were inflated and, anyway, we can't afford it any more. How can we<BR=
>
counteract this? (I am no longer in that school district, the distric=
t dropped<BR>
their gifted program, so it is moot with me, but I am afraid that this will=20=
<BR>
happen elsewhere.)<BR>
<BR>
Laura Walsh LWalshETAL@aol.com<BR>
[apologies for HTML coding, if it is here - AOL won't let me get rid of it.]=
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva"
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"=
2"></FONT></HTML>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:01:15 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC827DBA.C3EB%kkearney@ttlc.net>
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Julie wrote:
<<<<When we took the last set of assessment tests, the first day
went well,
the second did not (he was having an off day - SID/APD) so the thought was
to wait until later to perhaps get a better reading on the IQ as that was on
day 2. I'd rather only go back for the test once, so I am trying to time
things so they might benefit school placement but also so that the
assessment is likely more true to his potential. So for me, stabilize is
when most kids seem to be able to handle the whole round of tests - where
people think another test probably will not show differently. Perhaps I am
dreaming.>>>>
Well, an "off day" can happen to a child at *any* age (or an adult,
for that
matter -- I personally botched my GRE's big time because I was sick the day
of the test and had to take another test in order to get into graduate
school!)
Sometimes, for whatever reason, a test doesn't accurately represent a
child's true abilities. When that happens, you can either wait for a year or
more and have the same test re-administered, or you can ask for a different
test to be administered.
In general "off days" for testing are vastly more likely to happen
with
preschool children -- even gifted ones -- than with older school-age
children. So you might want to wait til the child is 6 or 7 to minimize some
of this.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE>Julie wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><<<<When we took the last set
of assessment tests,=
the first day went well, the second did not (he was having an off day - SID=
/APD) so the thought was to wait until later to perhaps get a better reading=
on the IQ as that was on day 2. I'd rather only go back
for the=
test once, so I am trying to time things so they might benefit school place=
ment but also so that the assessment is likely more true to his potential. &=
nbsp;So for me, stabilize is when most kids seem to be able to handle the wh=
ole round of tests - where people think another test probably will not show
=
differently. Perhaps I am dreaming.>>>><BR>
<BR>
Well, an "off day" can happen to a child at *any* age (or
an adul=
t, for that matter -- I personally botched my GRE's big time because I was
s=
ick the day of the test and had to take another test in order to get into gr=
aduate school!) <BR>
<BR>
Sometimes, for whatever reason, a test doesn't accurately represent a child=
's true abilities. When that happens, you can either wait for a year or more=
and have the same test re-administered, or you can ask for a different test=
to be administered.<BR>
<BR>
In general "off days" for testing are vastly more likely to
happe=
n with preschool children -- even gifted ones -- than with older school-age
=
children. So you might want to wait til the child is 6 or 7 to minimize some=
of this.</BLOCKQUOTE>
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:01:33 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Differential Ability Scales
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D139D.9060208@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Hi Laurie,
We do give the DAS, but I would say infrequently, mostly due to the fact
that in choosing an individual IQ test for a child, we need to make sure
the child's school is familiar with the test. More schools are familiar
with WISCs, so that must be a consideration. I have not given too many,
but I have found the DAS helpful with older gifted children (10-16)
instead of a WISC-III, when heavy timing emphasis is a problem. We
found that young children could still get high scores on WISC-III
nonverbal timed tasks if they worked slowly but completed many items
perfectly. However, older children could all successfully complete most
of the items, so their scores increasingly depended on their speed of
completion. When we had a very reflective older child, the DAS scores
were more reflective of their reasoning than their speed--a definite
plus. I also like the block designs (Pattern Construction), Matrices,
and Sequential and Quantitative Reasoning subtests on the test. I found
the verbal abstract reasoning not quite as advanced as the
WISC-III--sometimes a problem for gifted children. The WISC-IV has even
more advanced verbal abstract reasoning--a consideration. Recall of
Objects, a visual memory test, may not yield strong scores in gifted
children. Children with extraordinary visual-spatial skills may have
poor memory of pictures of discrete objects that have no relation to
each other. We find these children respond to meaning and connections
between concepts. I don't believe we have found the pattern that gifted
children score higher on the DAS than on WISCs. It has varied in our
experience. Hope this helps.
Bobbie Gilman
Laurie Jensen wrote:
> I'm so glad we're getting going! It was a long wait for all of us.
>
>
>
> It seems that most people are familiar with the WISC-III and WISC-IV,
> and the SBs in all their incarnations. Is anyone in the gifted
> community using the DAS (DIfferential Ability Scales)? As an
> evaluator, I like this test for a number of reasons. It is brief, yet
> gives good information about verbal ability, spatial ability and
> nonverbal ability (non-verbal problem solving, or inductive
> reasoning). It does not mix more automatic tasks, such as processing
> speed and short-term memory, into the overall score, but assess these
> skills separately. It also seems to be yielding higher scores than
> the WISC-IV, which in turn yields higher scores than the SB:5. Of
> course, I've only tested a handful of students using more than one IQ
> test. And, of course, the DAS is due for revision, as it's older than
> the WISC-IV and SB:5.
>
>
>
> Could you comment on the use of DAS in gifted assessment?
>
>
>
> Thanks! - Laurie
>
> Sally_L@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Assessment and Testing: What about the SB5, WISC-IV, and Other
> Tests?
>
> Kathi Kearney M.A. Ed. And Barbara J. Gilman M.S
> March 20th & 21st, 2004
>
> This conference will explore some of the issues surrounding
> assessment of gifted children. When is assessment appropriate?
> Who should assess gifted children? What instruments are most
> commonly used, and why? What is the impact of new assessment
> instruments and new revisions on the identification of gifted
> children? What information can be gained from a full evaluation,
> and how can this information most effectively be used
> in both the classroom and at home?
>
>
> Opening Statement
>
> "Few experiences are more fascinating to me than testing a gifted
> child. From the first moments of meeting the child, a picture of
> that child's pattern of abilities and, perhaps, rela tive
> weaknesses is
> becoming apparent. Once we begin the IQ test, I am observing
> verbal abstract reasoning, spatial reasoning, general knowledge,
> vision, audition, memory, motor skills, processing speed, attention
> and a host of subtle cues that help to further explain the scores the
> child earns. The sessions are usually very engaging for these
> children; the inherent challenge of the tests often eclipses what
> they experience at school. They are usually happy, frequently quite
> humorous, and virtually always well-motivated to do their best. But
> for me, amidst the enjoyment of getting to know them, the pieces
> of a puzzle are being put into place and the final puzzle seems
> always to be unique from all of the others that I have watched
> coalesce." (B.J. Gilman, Empowering Gifted Minds: Educational
> Advocacy That Works)
>
> Welcome to our online conference about gifted assessment. In the
> next two days, we hope to shed light on man y aspects of testing:
> to explain what can be learned through testing, to look at how
> tests can be used positively to document abilities and suggest
> accommodations in school, and to consider how newly revised and
> renormed tests are performing with the gifted population. What do
> these findings suggest about the ways these new instruments
> should be used with the gifted?
>
>
> The Microcosm: Testing the Gifted
>
> We are unabashed supporters of testing, when it constitutes a part
> of clinical observation and is supplemented by consideration of a
> child's developmental history. No single test or score, when
> considered in isolation from other observations, can ever be
> completely relied upon to document a child's abilities. It may,
> but it
> also may not; without additional observations we have no gauge of
> whether our scores represent underestimates.
>
> Those of us experienced in testing the gifted can usually make
> close e stimates of the scores children will earn based on our
> knowledge of and initial conversations with them. Those qualities
> that we have learned to recognize as gifted, or highly or profoundly
> gifted, become recognizable. However, the tests offer us tools to
> further explore a child's intellectual functioning and document it.
> They shortcut the process of observing the child's responses to
> varied situations, over the course of days or months, into a few
> hours. Because they provide normative comparisons with age
> peers, we are able to tell how advanced, typical, or delayed a
> child's abilities are.
>
> IQ tests (often in conjunction with achievement tests) allow us to
> clarify the educational needs of children who are discrepant from
> the average and to provide information needed to create an
> appropriate educational program for them. Although the
> performance of average children is important in norming these
> tests, the tests are rarely used for average children experiencing no
> problems in school. They are used most with developmentally
> delayed children, those with learning disabilities or other deficits,
> and the gifted because typical educational programs are not
> working well for these children. Results from such tests help
> parents make child-rearing decisions and they provide excellent
> input about educational needs. They also provide documentation
> that what the parent thinks about the child's abilities has been
> confirmed by a professional. Parents of the gifted are so often
> put in the difficult position of justifying why they believe their
> children are gifted that testing becomes essential to provide a
> factual basis for discussion with school personnel.
>
> Because we work with gifted children, whose scores are high and
> sometimes very high, we frequently face criticism for scores that
> some find hard to believe. Equally low scores don't generate the
> sa me degree of doubt because they are not viewed as desirable.
> Charges of inaccurate scoring, inappropriate test administration,
> and gullibility in the face of parents "shopping for scores,"
are our
> constant companions. We would love to explain what safeguards
> we use to ensure accurate test results (*please* ask us), and to
> discuss some of the testing needs that are typical of the gifted.
> What we want most is to secure the same concern for gifted
> children with unique needs, based on their unusually high
> scores, as is accorded disabled children with similarly discrepant
> scores.
>
> Tests vary in their content, their appropriateness with different
> populations, their usefulness as a basis for educational requests. A
> good tester will choose tests carefully to document the strengths
> of the child, explore any relative weaknesses, and demonstrate
> need for accommodations. Tests are less powerful when only one
> test is allowed to document giftedness. The abilities emphasized
> on the particular test may or may not correspond with the child's
> strengths. The wise gifted program, school, or school district will
> allow multiple assessments, and outside testing with qualified
> professionals, to enhance its ability to identify gifted children.
>
>
> The Macrocosm: Testing in Society
>
> In 1919, at the dawn of the mental testing movement in this
> country, the author of the original Stanford-Binet, Lewis Terman,
> made a very important statement. In his book "The Intelligence of
> School Children," he noted that "If the tests are not to be used,
> they
> had better not be given."
>
> Today we are faced with a testing culture gone awry.
> Schoolchildren are required by both state and federal laws to be
> tested frequently, and in many contemporary classrooms, mere
> test prep has replaced true education. In the case of gifted
> children, both group and individual tests often a re used to qualify
> them for gifted programs, but the information provided by the
> tests is often never used to help provide appropriate interventions.
> Testing of children for gifted programs is also often used to
> exclude children from programs, rather than to include them.
> Inappropriate tests are also commonly used for the gifted - tests
> with ceilings that are too low, and tests that test areas other than
> those designed to be served by a specific program, thus resulting
> in a mismatch between a child's abilities and the program
> presented by the school. Perhaps even more worrisome, and
> certainly a trend that is ethically suspect, we are hearing more and
> more stories from the media of gifted children prevented by their
> schools from participating in regional classes for the gifted located
> in another school in the district, because the sending school will
> then "lose" the gifted child's high achievement test scores,
thus
> lowering the school's entire test average under No Child Left
> Behind.
>
>
> The Solution
>
> The assessment of gifted children should always lead to a better
> understanding of the child, and appropriate recommendations and
> interventions, whether that assessment is an individual assessment
> of ability or achievement, or performance on a group instrument.
> Otherwise, as Terman noted, the tests "had better not be given."
> Proper assessment should never be merely a gatekeeping activity
> governing entrance into certain programs, nor should it be done
> primarily to satisfy politicians, as is the case with so much testing
> in our schools today. Proper assessment of gifted children should
> yield information useful to the child, the family, and the school --
> information that will assist in the optimal development of the
> individual.
>
> One difference in both the individual and group assessment of
> gifted children is that, unlike other areas of special education
> (and,
> increasingly today, general education) a major purpose of the
> assessment of gifted children is to uncover patterns of strength,
> rather than deficits. (This is not to say that deficits may not be
> discovered during the assessment process, but it is usually not the
> primary focus of the assessment). This contrasts widely with many
> of the other major uses of assessment in contemporary society.
>
>
> Conference Expectations
>
> We expect some additional issues to arise during this conference,
> in addition to basic questions about when and why to assess
> gifted children, the uses of assessment information, and specific
> issues related to the assessment process. We encourage you to
> ask questions about assessing twice-exceptional gifted children
> (gifted children with disabilities); gifted children from differing
> backgrounds; the use (and misuse) of group achievement and
> ability tests as well as individ ual tests; and the concept of
> out-of-
> level testing and the upcoming changes in the SATs.
>
> Finally, there are things that we can and can't do in this
> conference.
> We CAN give you an overview of what to expect if you decide to go
> ahead with an individual assessment of your child. We CAN'T
> compromise test security in any way, which means we cannot
> discuss specific test content or individual test items. We CAN
> identify some of the strengths and weaknesses of various test
> instruments and testing approaches with the gifted. We CAN'T give
> individual advice or comment on test profiles of individual children.
> We also hope to share some of our own ideas and hopes for the
> future of assessment with the gifted.
>
> Let the conference begin!
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center <http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html> -
File
> online. File on time.
>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:07:02 +1100
From: "main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: What about the SB-LM?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <AIENIABCBHHEMHDLJPFIIEIDCCAA.main.family@optusnet.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
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Where will all the new assessment tools and trends place the SB-LM in the
near future? I understand that many of the new assessment tools
(particularly the SB-V) attempted to capture the strengths of the SB-LM and
other tests, but it appears that what was set out to be achieved, has, in
many respects, fallen short of the mark. Has any thought been given to
keeping the SB-LM basically as is, but modernising the questions and perhaps
incorporating more visual-spatial components? Maybe this is what the SB-V
has attempted to do.
Are we going to lose access to the SB-LM and be left with nothing that can
really distinguish the levels of giftedness at the extreme end of
giftedness?
Susan
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Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:05:15 -0800
From: Corin Goodwin <corin@thegoodwins.com>
Subject: Re: ASAT - Testing in the EG/PG range
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D147B.80203@thegoodwins.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Carolyn & Mark K. wrote:
>So yes, it matters, but no, they don't necessarily need to bill themselves
>as "gifted experts." It can be more subtle than that. But they
must
>understand!
>
Carolyn is right, of course...
It doesn't matter what they call themselves so long as the result is
that they can manage to work with your child appropriately!
Corin
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:17:11 -0500 (EST)
From: JDCWilker@aol.com
Subject: Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <4c.29a2d122.2d8e7147@aol.com>
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In a message dated 3/20/2004 8:03:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kkearney@ttlc.net writes:
In general "off days" for testing are vastly more likely to happen
with
preschool children -- even gifted ones -- than with older school-age children.
So
you might want to wait til the child is 6 or 7 to minimize some of this.
Thank you - this make a lot of sense, and until then I can update his WJ-III
levels to see how he has progressed in a year. Unfortunately, our present
school would not allow for anything out of grade - no classes, no tests, no
nothing. We are hopeful for a new school next year - and I would like to come
in
to the new one with as much knowledge of my son's abilities as possible so we
don't waste half the year with them trying to figure out a young introvert!
:)
Thanks so much!
Julie
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<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 3/20/2004 8:03:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, kkearney=
@ttlc.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
blue=20=
2px solid"><FONT face=3DArial>In general "off days"
for testing are vastly m=
ore likely to happen with preschool children -- even gifted ones -- than wit=
h older school-age children. So you might want to wait til the child is 6 or=
7 to minimize some of this.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV>Thank you - this make a lot of sense, and until then I can update
his W=
J-III levels to see how he has progressed in a year. Unfortunately,
ou=
r present school would not allow for anything out of grade - no classes, no=20=
tests, no nothing. We are hopeful for a new school next year - and
I w=
ould like to come in to the new one with as much knowledge of my son's abili=
ties as possible so we don't waste half the year with them trying to figure=20=
out a young introvert! :)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks so much!</DIV>
<DIV>Julie</DIV></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1079842631--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:22:56 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: What about the SB-LM?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC8282CF.C3F1%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Susan wrote:
> Where will all the new assessment tools and trends place the SB-LM in
the
> near future? I understand that many of the new assessment tools
> (particularly the SB-V) attempted to capture the strengths of the SB-LM
and
> other tests, but it appears that what was set out to be achieved, has,
in
> many respects, fallen short of the mark. Has any thought been given to
> keeping the SB-LM basically as is, but modernising the questions and perhaps
> incorporating more visual-spatial components? Maybe this is what the SB-V
> has attempted to do.
>
> Are we going to lose access to the SB-LM and be left with nothing that
can
> really distinguish the levels of giftedness at the extreme end of
> giftedness?>>>>
I'm actually finding the SB5/SBLM combination of tests to be very, very
helpful. Each version of the Stanford-Binet has strengths that the other
version does not.
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:19:44 -0500 (EST)
From: JDCWilker@aol.com
Subject: Re: ASAT: testing early elementary
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <db.64447fc.2d8e71e0@aol.com>
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Laurie - thank you so much for the run down on the DAS - it might be a great
instrument for us until my DS matures through his "off days" and has
fewer of
them. (They are mostly verbal off days so a test like DAS would probably set
well almost any day.) I really appreciate the detail!
Thanks so much,
Julie
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#fffff=
f">
<DIV>Laurie - thank you so much for the run down on the DAS
- it might=
be a great instrument for us until my DS matures through his "off days"
and=
has fewer of them. (They are mostly verbal off days so a test like
DA=
S would probably set well almost any day.) I really appreciate the
det=
ail!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks so much,</DIV>
<DIV>Julie</DIV></BODY></HTML>
-------------------------------1079842784--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:42:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Maura MacKenzie <msmack44@yahoo.com>
Subject: ASAT: WISC IV
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321044204.35722.qmail@web61102.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-556369071-1079844124=:33289"
--0-556369071-1079844124=:33289
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My 7 year old son, who is in second grade, was tested last month with the WISC
IV. I saw the earlier post which recommended further testing (SB LM?) if the
child hits the ceiling on two or more of the Verbal Comprehension subtests.
My
son hit two test ceilings; however one was a Verbal Comprehension subtest and
the other was a Perceptual Reasoning subtest. Does the same recommendation
apply in this instance?
Also, I am curious as to the distinctions between mildly, highly and profoundly
gifted. If a full scale IQ of 145 is considered highly gifted, which test does
this apply to? WISC III, WISC IV, SB IV, SB V, SB LM?
I am new to all of this, and am trying to get a handle on what it all means
so
that I can be informed and advocate for my son. Thanks for your help.
Maura
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
--0-556369071-1079844124=:33289
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV>My 7 year old son, who is in second grade, was tested last month
with the
WISC IV. I saw the earlier post which recommended further testing
(SB LM?)
if the child hits the ceiling on two or more of the Verbal Comprehension
subtests. My son hit two test ceilings; however one was a Verbal
Comprehension subtest and the other was a Perceptual Reasoning subtest.
Does the same recommendation apply in this instance? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Also, I am curious as to the distinctions between mildly, highly
and
profoundly gifted. If a full scale IQ of 145 is considered highly
gifted,
which test does this apply to? WISC III, WISC IV, SB IV, SB V, SB
LM? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am new to all of this, and am trying to get a handle on what it
all means
so that I can be informed and advocate for my son. Thanks for your
help.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Maura</DIV><p><font face=arial size=-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><b>Yahoo!
Finance Tax
Center</a></b> - File online. File on time.
--0-556369071-1079844124=:33289--
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 04:48:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Anthony=20Xavier?= <antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: from Malaysia
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321044803.4493.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1547858760-1079844483=:3654"
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Dear Kathi,
No, English is not her first language but she only converse in English both
at
home and in school. Though she understands tamil and Malay language, she still
chooses to speak in English.
Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net> wrote:
Sheila and Anthony, some very important questions before going any further.
Is English her first language?
Was the WISC-III administered in English?
on 3/20/04 5:55 PM, Anthony Xavier at antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly gifted"
by and an
experience Education Consultant. We were advised to take her for a BM-LM test
or the 5th edition. We searched but could not find one single pscychologists
with this test. Not to mention in Malaysia we've got only 5 PhD holders for
child pyschologists. Most psychologists we checked with had no experience in
gifted issues but we had no choice. She was administered the WISC III and her
scores were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ = 109-125 and Perfomance speed 130. These
score were total shock to us as she is now doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving
and refusing to do anything on "+" and "-". Finished her
first year science
book over a period of 10 days. She goes in extreme speed and once done, she
dont want to touch it again. She wants something new and different. She
speaks very well but we just cant seems to understand where it went wrong.
Before the test she was extremely shy with the docto
r and
just refused to look at him but settled down slowly once the test beginned.
The discrepancy between these score were 33 points. What is the significant
here? The report speaks quite highly of a fluid intelligence but the scores
dont show it. Is this 33 points difference is normal? What does it really
show?
We live in country where most are not familiar with the term "gifted".
Even the
school principal has never heard of such thing. The principal has seen my
daughter's work and is convinced that she should not spend a whole year in grade
1 and that she should get a grade jump to third level. But we're afraid now
if
the test score will jeopodise this. We're are also not comfortable with a grade
jump to 3rd grade, we afraid she will have socializing problem which she already
begins to exhibit. Same problem with her 13 year old brother.
Please and please share your views with us.
Worried parents
Sheila & Anthony
---------------------------------
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--0-1547858760-1079844483=:3654
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<DIV>Dear Kathi,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>No, English is not her first language but she only converse in English
both
at home and in school. Though she understands tamil and Malay language,
she still chooses to speak in English. <BR><BR><B><I>Kathi
Kearney
<kkearney@ttlc.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Sheila and Anthony, some very important
questions before going any further.<BR><BR>Is English her first
language?
<BR><BR>Was the WISC-III administered in English?<BR><BR><BR><BR>on
3/20/04 5:55
PM, Anthony Xavier at antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly
gifted" by and an experience Education Consultant. We were advised
to take
her for a BM-LM test or the 5th edition. We searched but could not
find
one single pscychologists with this test. Not to mention in Malaysia
we've
got only 5 PhD holders for child pyschologists. Most psychologists
we
checked with had no experience in gifted issues but we had no choice. She
was administered the WISC III and her scores were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ =
109-125 and Perfomance speed 130. These score were total shock to
us as
she is now doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving and refusing to do anything
on
"+" and "-". Finished her first year science book
over a period of 10
days. She goes in extreme speed and once done, she dont want to touch
it
again. She wants something new and different. She
speaks
very well but we just cant seems to understand wh
ere it
went wrong. Before the test she was extremely shy with the doctor
and
just refused to look at him but settled down slowly once the test
beginned.<BR><BR>The discrepancy between these score were 33 points.
<B>What is the significant here? </B>The report
speaks quite highly
of a fluid intelligence but the scores dont show it. Is this 33 points
difference is normal? What does it really show?<BR><BR>We
live in country
where most are not familiar with the term "gifted". Even
the school
principal has never heard of such thing. The principal has seen my
daughter's work and is convinced that she should not spend a whole year in grade
1 and that she should get a grade jump to third level. But we're afraid
now if the test score will jeopodise this. We're are also not comfortable
with a grade jump to 3rd grade, we afraid she will have socializing problem
which she already begins to exhibit. Same problem with her 13 year
old
brother.<BR><BR>Please and please share your views with us.<BR><BR>Worried
parents<BR>Sheila & Anthony<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
<BR><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><B>Yahoo! Messenger</B>
- Communicate
instantly..."Ping" your friends today! <B>Download Messenger
Now</B></FONT></FONT> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>
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href="http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.c
om"><b>
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your friends
today! <a
href="http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.c
om/download/index.html"><strong>Download Messenger Now</strong></a></font>
--0-1547858760-1079844483=:3654--
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 04:49:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Anthony=20Xavier?= <antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: from Malaysia
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321044920.18600.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-786246375-1079844560=:17873"
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit
--0-786246375-1079844560=:17873
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
OOps. I forgot. Yes, WISC III was administered in English.
Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net> wrote:Sheila and Anthony, some very
important
questions before going any further.
Is English her first language?
Was the WISC-III administered in English?
on 3/20/04 5:55 PM, Anthony Xavier at antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly gifted"
by and an
experience Education Consultant. We were advised to take her for a BM-LM test
or the 5th edition. We searched but could not find one single pscychologists
with this test. Not to mention in Malaysia we've got only 5 PhD holders for
child pyschologists. Most psychologists we checked with had no experience in
gifted issues but we had no choice. She was administered the WISC III and her
scores were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ = 109-125 and Perfomance speed 130. These
score were total shock to us as she is now doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving
and refusing to do anything on "+" and "-". Finished her
first year science
book over a period of 10 days. She goes in extreme speed and once done, she
dont want to touch it again. She wants something new and different. She
speaks very well but we just cant seems to understand where it went wrong.
Before the test she was extremely shy with the docto
r and
just refused to look at him but settled down slowly once the test beginned.
The discrepancy between these score were 33 points. What is the significant
here? The report speaks quite highly of a fluid intelligence but the scores
dont show it. Is this 33 points difference is normal? What does it really
show?
We live in country where most are not familiar with the term "gifted".
Even the
school principal has never heard of such thing. The principal has seen my
daughter's work and is convinced that she should not spend a whole year in grade
1 and that she should get a grade jump to third level. But we're afraid now
if
the test score will jeopodise this. We're are also not comfortable with a grade
jump to 3rd grade, we afraid she will have socializing problem which she already
begins to exhibit. Same problem with her 13 year old brother.
Please and please share your views with us.
Worried parents
Sheila & Anthony
---------------------------------
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Download
Messenger Now
---------------------------------
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Download
Messenger Now
--0-786246375-1079844560=:17873
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<DIV>OOps. I forgot. Yes, WISC III was administered
in
English.<BR><BR><B><I>Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net></I></B>
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Sheila and Anthony, some very important
questions before going any further.<BR><BR>Is English her first
language?
<BR><BR>Was the WISC-III administered in English?<BR><BR><BR><BR>on
3/20/04 5:55
PM, Anthony Xavier at antshe2021@yahoo.co.uk wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>My seven year old daughter was recently identified as "highly
gifted" by and an experience Education Consultant. We were advised
to take
her for a BM-LM test or the 5th edition. We searched but could not
find
one single pscychologists with this test. Not to mention in Malaysia
we've
got only 5 PhD holders for child pyschologists. Most psychologists
we
checked with had no experience in gifted issues but we had no choice. She
was administered the WISC III and her scores were VIQ=86 - 93, whereas PIQ =
109-125 and Perfomance speed 130. These score were total shock to
us as
she is now doing grade 3-4 maths problem solving and refusing to do anything
on
"+" and "-". Finished her first year science book
over a period of 10
days. She goes in extreme speed and once done, she dont want to touch
it
again. She wants something new and different. She
speaks
very well but we just cant seems to understand wh
ere it
went wrong. Before the test she was extremely shy with the doctor
and
just refused to look at him but settled down slowly once the test
beginned.<BR><BR>The discrepancy between these score were 33 points.
<B>What is the significant here? </B>The report
speaks quite highly
of a fluid intelligence but the scores dont show it. Is this 33 points
difference is normal? What does it really show?<BR><BR>We
live in country
where most are not familiar with the term "gifted". Even
the school
principal has never heard of such thing. The principal has seen my
daughter's work and is convinced that she should not spend a whole year in grade
1 and that she should get a grade jump to third level. But we're afraid
now if the test score will jeopodise this. We're are also not comfortable
with a grade jump to 3rd grade, we afraid she will have socializing problem
which she already begins to exhibit. Same problem with her 13 year
old
brother.<BR><BR>Please and please share your views with us.<BR><BR>Worried
parents<BR>Sheila & Anthony<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1>
<BR><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><B>Yahoo! Messenger</B>
- Communicate
instantly..."Ping" your friends today! <B>Download Messenger
Now</B></FONT></FONT> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>
<hr size=1><font face="Arial" size="2"> <a
href="http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.c
om"><b>
Yahoo! Messenger</b></a> - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
your friends
today! <a
href="http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.c
om/download/index.html"><strong>Download Messenger Now</strong></a></font>
--0-786246375-1079844560=:17873--
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 15:51:03 +1100
From: Glenda Parsons <glendap@parsonsdesigns.com>
Subject: RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <200403210451.i2L4p2oS005258@mail4.tpgi.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0043_01C40F5C.515EED40"
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Laurie,
So if you get a high score on the quantitative subtest is likely to be an
over or under estimation?
Glenda
_____
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] On
Behalf Of Laurie Jensen
Sent: Sunday, 21 March 2004 1:12 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test question on mathematical ability
I probably shouldn't have been answering for Kathi or Bobbi, but since you
asked about the Quantitative (and it was a pet peeve of mine on the SB:IV),
I should also mention that I didn't use it with many gifted kids. With the
kids I did give it to, I found that they didn't get very far and I wasn't
able to really find out much about their skills. But, I have to note that I
test a lot of LD kids, so take my comments with a grain of salt! - Laurie
"main.family" <main.family@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
Thanks Laurie for your reply. Does the sub-test give insights into any
strengths/weaknesses, or is it too poorly designed to be able to interpret
accurately? I noted with interest your comment about kids reaching their
ceiling earlier than they should have. - Susan
I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the Quantitative
subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make sense. Kids seemed to
reach their ceiling earlier than they should have. But this was subjective.
I still use parts of the SB:IV, selectively, to supplement other IQ tests.
- Laurie
".
Do you Yahoo!?
<http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File
online. File on time.
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C40F5C.515EED40
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2737.800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D486275004-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Laurie,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D486275004-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D486275004-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>So if you get a high score on the quantitative =
subtest is=20
likely to be an over or under estimation?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D486275004-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D486275004-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Glenda</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu=20
[mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Laurie=20
Jensen<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 21 March 2004 1:12 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: ASAT: SB 4 sub-test
question =
on=20
mathematical ability<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I probably shouldn't have been answering for Kathi or Bobbi, but
=
since you=20
asked about the Quantitative (and it was a pet peeve of mine on the =
SB:IV), I=20
should also mention that I didn't use it with many gifted kids. =
With the=20
kids I did give it to, I found that they didn't get very far and I =
wasn't able=20
to really find out much about their skills. But, I have to note =
that I=20
test a lot of LD kids, so take my comments with a grain of salt! -
=
Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>"main.family" =
<main.family@optusnet.com.au></I></B>=20
wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dreplbq=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
=
solid">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=3DGENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D050175501-21032004></SPAN><FONT
=
size=3D2>T<SPAN class=3D050175501-21032004>hanks Laurie for your
=
reply. Does=20
the sub-test give insights into any strengths/weaknesses, or is =
it too=20
poorly designed to be able to interpret accurately? I noted with =
interest your comment about kids reaching their ceiling earlier than =
they=20
should have. - Susan</SPAN><SPAN class=3D050175501-21032004><FONT
=
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV>I actually loved parts of the SB:IV, but stopped giving the=20
Quantitative subtest, as I felt the order of the items didn't make=20
sense. Kids seemed to reach their ceiling earlier than they =
should=20
have. But this was subjective. I still use parts of the
=
SB:IV,=20
selectively, to supplement other IQ tests. -=20
Laurie<BR><BR><B><I>"</I></B><FONT
face=3Darial=20
size=3D-1>.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3Darial size=3D-1>Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html"><B>Yahoo! Finance
Tax =
Center</A></B> -=20
File online. File on time.</FONT></P></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C40F5C.515EED40--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:03:43 -0800
From: Steve and Becca <rorlowski@cts.com>
Subject: ASAT: retesting necessary?
To: ourgifted-l@neiu.edu
Message-id: <0e0001c40f01$f3aef550$810478d8@computerroom>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
My son was tested 3 1/2 years ago (at age 6 1/2) using the WISC III and the
SBLM. His scores indicated a PG level of giftedness. We homeschool and the
tests were very helpful in planning his education. Would there be any
reason for us to have him retested on any of the newer tests? (We're
considering having him take the SAT or CHSPE (a California test) within the
next year but have no other test taking plans at this time.)
Also, because there was a 28 point discrepency between his VIQ (ceilinged
everything) and PIQ (due a lot to processing speed), I'm wondering if this
*might* be something to pursue in terms of accomodations on any written
portions of tests such as the SAT? Something perhaps I should discuss with
his tester?
Hope my questions make sense and thank you *so* much for this conference!
Becca O.
rorlowski@cts.com
"Music exists for two purposes: the
glorification of God and the
refreshment of the soul." Bach
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:17:29 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT -- testing 2E kids
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D2569.7030707@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hi Sarah,
This is a tough question. I am not aware of research that deals with
how autistic spectrum children react to testing but, Dr. Deirdre
Lovecky's new book, *Different Minds: Gifted Children With AD/HD,
Asperger Syndrome, and Other Learning Deficits* (Jessica Kingsley Pub,
Mar 2004) might be helpful. My experiences testing gifted children with
Aspergers have varied from no difficulties during testing and an
apparent enjoyment of the test situation to one young man who required
several days to test (instead of one) because it was felt he couldn't
function before later in the day and had serious motor problems that
lengthened the time it took to complete any written work on the
achievement test.
There are many children who present challenges in testing and testers
need to develop strategies to meet varying situations (and remain
flexible for the situations they've never before experienced). Once in
a while, we encounter a child who is so difficult to test that we
attempt to document only the most important strengths, so that parents
have something until the child becomes more testable.
You might try to establish a relationship with a very experienced
tester, so that your son feels as comfortable with that person as
possible. Then, when testing is tried, agree to discontinue as soon as
difficulty is encountered. You can always finish another day.
Of course refusing to finish the test lowers his scores. Just because
he is "regularly uncooperative and recalcitrant" doesn't mean that
his
lowered scores actually reflect his true potential. The results you
have must be considered minimal estimates of his abilities *for now*.
.
Bobbie Gilman
Sarah Garrison wrote:
> Thank you, ladies, for hosting this conference.
>
> I'll go ahead and take a stab at the "testing twice-exceptional kids"
> question.
>
> My ds, Origami, is 7.5 yo, pg and an Aspie. We had him tested at 5.5
> yo; he ceilinged the WPPSI, took the WIAT and SB-LM. He refused to
> finish the SB-LM, so we do not know how accurate his score really is.
> My dh argues that since his personality is such that he regularly is
> uncooperative and recalcitrant, the score is as good as any.
>
> I would be interested in knowing: is there any research on how being
> "on the spectrum" affects testing, either with regard to choice
of
> test or with regard to whether scores might be affected?
>
> Thank you,
>
> SarahG
>
>
>
> msgarrison@sbcglobal.net
>
> "It really is difficult to imagine how people who have entirely given
> up managing their own affairs could make a wise choice of those who
> are to do that for them. One should never expect a liberal, energetic
> and wise government to originate in the votes of a people of
> servants." -- Alexis de Tocqueville
>
> GO ZAGS!!
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:21:26 +0800
From: Tracy Chaloner <tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
Subject: ASAT: Re-testing?
To: Ourgifted-L <OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu>
Message-id: <BC834755.1A803%tracy@cycloneco.com.au>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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My son is now almost 14. He has been extensively tested throughout his
childhood, including the WPPSI-R, K-BIT, WISC-III, and SBLM. In addition he
has had out of level testing and achievement testing.
The last test he had done at 11-5 when he hit 'the ceiling' of the SBLM. He
hasn't been in school or educated formally since he was 11-8, over two years
ago now.
We are trying to find some educational provision for him as he is so
terribly bored. The problem is certification, in addition to extensive
learning disabilties and mental illness. He had an ad hoc Individual
Education Plan for many years at school, and as such doesn't have any high
school certificate at all. His achievement levels were exceptionally high
(4-5 years above his age grade level) when he dropped out of school, believe
it or not, bored and very distressed. Lack of certification may be a barrier
to accessing appropriate educational opportunities.
I am wondering whether re-testing him on the new testing instruments would
provide any information we don't already have. The problem here is that we
know his potential ability as a result of the above mentioned tests, but not
where he is cognitively at today, after an educational hiatus. Would any
particular test give us a better idea of his current areas of strength and
weakness, whether there has been a change (there was a significant change
between the WPPSI-R and the WISC-III, from highly verbal to highly spatial,
and then highly verbal again on the SBLM, probably more a function of the
test than DS) and where we should be looking to for educational provision?
I am really at a loss with him at the moment, so any advice would be
appreciated.
all the best
Tracy
Pemberton, Western Australia
tracy@cycloneco.com.au
----------------------
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
‹Eleanor Roosevelt, American First Lady, Civil Rights Activist
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:23:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Julie Knapp <littleredhenschool@yahoo.com>
Subject: ASAT Re: What can you learn from the SB-V
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040321052340.63458.qmail@web80503.mail.yahoo.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1506955152-1079846620=:59533"
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LWalshETAL@aol.com wrote:
>>...I am concerned about the immediate effect of the new lower scores
on
acceptance into established gifted programs... With the new, lower
scores, far fewer children will qualify for the program... I am afraid that
districts will say, in effect, see, there isn't any more need for gifted
programming - those other scores
were inflated and, anyway, we can't afford it any more...<<
The "Estimated Equating" table which compares SB-V and SB-LM scores
(as shown on
page 10 of Deborah Ruf's "Use of the SB5 in the Assessment of High Abilities
paper - http://www.riverpub.com/products/clinical/sbis5/SB5_ASB_3.pdf ) Shows
that, not only does the SB-V seem to "supress" the scores on the upper
end... it
seems to do the same on the lower end, as well.
Call me suspicious... but it leads me to wonder if this was an unfortunate
out-come of the test... or the intention of the test... (?) With just the
right "spin", maybe we can show that there really isn't as much IQ
varience in
the population as we thought... and not as much need for differentiation on
either end of the scale...
If tests lower the ceiling and install an elevator in the basement.. then there
no longer *are* levels of intelligence for the schools to deal with.
just my 2cents worth
-julie
--0-1506955152-1079846620=:59533
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<DIV><B><I><A href="mailto:LWalshETAL@aol.com">LWalshETAL@aol.com</A></I></B>
wrote:<FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT face=Geneva color=#000000 size=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR>>>...I am concerned
about the immediate effect of
the new lower scores on<BR>acceptance into established gifted
programs... With the new, lower<BR>scores,
far fewer
children will qualify for the program... I am afraid that
districts
will say, in effect, see, there isn't any more need for gifted programming -
those other scores<BR>were inflated and, anyway, we can't afford it any
more...<<</FONT></FONT><FONT face=arial,helvetica></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica>The "Estimated Equating"
table which compares
SB-V and SB-LM scores (as shown on page 10 of Deborah Ruf's
"Use of
the SB5 in the Assessment of High Abilities paper - <A
href="http://www.riverpub.com/products/clinical/sbis5/SB5_ASB_3.pdf">http://www.
riverpub.com/products/clinical/sbis5/SB5_ASB_3.pdf</A> ) Shows
that, not
only does the SB-V seem to "supress" the scores on the upper end...
it seems to
do the same on the lower end, as well. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica>Call me suspicious... but it leads
me to wonder
if this was an unfortunate out-come of the test... or the intention of the
test... (?) With just the right "spin",
maybe we can show
that there really isn't as much IQ varience in the population as we thought...
and not as much need for differentiation on either end of the
scale...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica>If tests lower the ceiling and install
an
elevator in the basement.. then there no longer *are* levels of
intelligence for the schools to deal with.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica>just my 2cents worth</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica>-julie </DIV></FONT>
--0-1506955152-1079846620=:59533--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:37:00 -0800
From: Leese Johnson <leesemom@comcast.net>
Subject: ASAT: Which test/grade to use?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <20040320213645.941431AC005@mailgate.neiu.edu>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0090_01C40EC3.7AAD3600"
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We have used the Stanford and the California (both one year above level) and
receiving 99%tile scores. The Johns Hopkins SCAT test (due to my grade
placement error) scored the student against kids 4 grades above their public
school grade and the child still qualified. The child is homeschooled and
does work 2 grades above level.
What do you think about jumping two grade levels above their "public"
school
grade on a group achievement test? Our state requires a "nationally normed"
test so we'd like to use the level and test that will yield the most useful
results. We'd like suggestions both for the best test within these limits
and grade placement for the tests.
Leese
leesemom@comcast.net
The purpose of the talent search "out of level" tests in the first
place is
to take children who are scoring at the very top of grade-level achievement
tests and give them a test for older children -- in other words, raise the
ceiling of the test -- to see how they do. The individual achievement tests
have that higher ceiling built in, since they were designed for students of
a wide variety of ages and grades.
Still another option is for your first-grader to take a group achievement
test, such as the Iowa Test of Basic Skills or the Stanford Achievement
Test, as an "out of level" test -- in other words, have her take the
third
grade test, and compare her scores with third grade students to see how she
does.
------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C40EC3.7AAD3600
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charset="US-ASCII"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META charset=3DUS-ASCII http-equiv=3DContent-Type=20
content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUS-ASCII">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR:
=
#ffffff">
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
class=3D999502605-21032004>We have used the Stanford and the=20
California (both one year above level) and receiving
=
99%tile=20
scores. The Johns Hopkins SCAT test (due to my grade placement =
error)=20
scored the student against kids 4 grades above their public school grade =
and the=20
child still qualified. The child is homeschooled and does work 2 grades =
above=20
level. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
class=3D999502605-21032004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
class=3D999502605-21032004>What do you think about jumping two grade =
levels above=20
their "public" school grade on a group achievement test? Our state=20
requires a "nationally normed" test so we'd like to use =
the level=20
and test that will yield the most useful results. We'd like=20
suggestions both for the best test within these limits and grade =
placement for=20
the tests.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS"
color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
class=3D999502605-21032004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Leese</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:leesemom@comcast.net">leesemom@comcast.net</A>
=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px
=
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>The purpose of=20
the talent search "out of level" tests in the first place is to take
=
children=20
who are scoring at the very top of grade-level achievement tests and =
give them=20
a test for older children -- in other words, raise the ceiling of the =
test --=20
to see how they do. The individual achievement tests have that higher =
ceiling=20
built in, since they were designed for students of a wide variety of =
ages and=20
grades.<BR><BR>Still another option is for your first-grader to
take a =
group=20
achievement test, such as the Iowa Test of Basic Skills or the =
Stanford=20
Achievement Test, as an "out of level" test -- in other words, have
=
her take=20
the third grade test, and compare her scores with third grade students =
to see=20
how she does. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0090_01C40EC3.7AAD3600--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:37:03 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: retesting necessary?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D29FF.3050804@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=windows-1252
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hi Becca,
If the WISC-III and SBLM went well and documented his abilities
appropriately, another IQ test is probably not needed. Certainly pursue
the SAT for Talent Search and other specific tests as needed. If you're
not achievement testing (you may be), administering the WJ-III Tests of
Achievement might be helpful a couple of times in the next several
years. That test has a graduate school ceiling and can be helpful in
documenting very high achievement in reading, math, spelling, and
writing. The "fluency" tests are less helpful for gifted children
and
need not be given.
Regarding accommodations for college board exams, talking with your
tester is a good idea. If the need for accommodations is there,
document it and keep records of how you have made like accommodations in
his home program. These may be needed for college board consideration
of accommodations. Completing a preparation course for SATs (through
Princeton Review, Kaplan, etc.) can also be helpful to help with pacing
and see if he can finish the test sections in time.
Bobbie Gilman
Steve and Becca wrote:
> My son was tested 3 1/2 years ago (at age 6 1/2) using the WISC III and
the
> SBLM. His scores indicated a PG level of giftedness. We homeschool and
the
> tests were very helpful in planning his education. Would there be any
> reason for us to have him retested on any of the newer tests? (We're
> considering having him take the SAT or CHSPE (a California test) within
the
> next year but have no other test taking plans at this time.)
>
> Also, because there was a 28 point discrepency between his VIQ (ceilinged
> everything) and PIQ (due a lot to processing speed), I'm wondering if
this
> *might* be something to pursue in terms of accomodations on any written
> portions of tests such as the SAT? Something perhaps I should discuss with
> his tester?
>
> Hope my questions make sense and thank you *so* much for this conference!
>
> Becca O.
> rorlowski@cts.com
>
> "Music exists for two purposes: the
> glorification of God and the
> refreshment of the soul." Bach
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 00:42:50 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: from Malaysia
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC829589.C40C%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=MS_Mac_OE_3162674570_1647709_MIME_Part
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Anthony wrote:
<<<<No, English is not her first language but she only converse
in English
both at home and in school. Though she understands tamil and Malay
language, she still chooses to speak in English. >>>>
Then it's quite likely that her bilingualism affected her test performance
-- if the WISC-III was given in English.
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<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: from Malaysia</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Anthony wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<<<<No, English is not her first language but she
only converse=
in English both at home and in school. Though she understands tamil
a=
nd Malay language, she still chooses to speak in English. >>>><B=
R>
<BR>
Then it's quite likely that her bilingualism affected her test performance =
-- if the WISC-III was given in English.</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--MS_Mac_OE_3162674570_1647709_MIME_Part--
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 22:52:40 -0700
From: "Barbara J. Gilman" <bobbie@h2net.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Does the V/P gap have a meaning?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <405D2DA8.6090801@h2net.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
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Luc, this is another important question.
Discrepancies between Verbal and Performance IQ scores on Wechsler tests
are diagnostically important. For example, on the WPPSI-R, a table in
the manual indicates that for 4-year-olds, a discrepancy of 10 points is
significant at the 5% level. Another table notes that a discrepancy of
25 points between Verbal and Performance IQ scores occurred in only 16
percent of 4-year-olds in the normative sample. A discrepancy of 50
points occurred in 9 percent of cases. Tests offer such tables to
evaluate the significance of discrepancies. (This one isn't too
specific.) However, a discrepancy of 32 points (VIQ-150, PIQ-118)
should be further investigated.
Verbal items are administered verbally (the child responds to the
tester's verbal questioning), while Performance items are admininstered
visually (the child looks at pictures, manipulates objects, completes
paper-and-pencil tasks). Verbal items require reasonable speech and
language skills (including good hearing and auditory processing).
Performance items require good visual processing, visual acuity, and
visual-motor coordination and speed. So, the first thing to rule out
when Verbal scores are higher than Performance is visual problems.
Frequently, young children are somewhat farsighted (longsighted) and may
have trouble seeing detail. Children may also have good distance vision
and healthy eyes, but may have some visual processing problems. Perhaps
their eyes don't easily track words on the line of a page (they
inadvertently skip to the next line) or they have difficulty changing
from far-point to near-point focus (these children have trouble copying
from the blackboard). Or they may have difficulty copying designs,
reproducing angles in the wrong direction. Such problems can be subtle
in a gifted child who compensates well.
We find that behavioral optometrists are helpful here. They are trained
to assess these additional visual processing issues and can either rule
them out as problems or prescribe vision therapy, which has been
effective in many cases (see www.covd.org <http://www.covd.org> or a
referral). The book *Developing Your Child for Success* by Dr. Kenneth
Lane also describes these issues and offers vision exercises (helpful if
you don't have a behavioral optometrist nearby).
If Verbal scores are significantly lower, we first see if there is a
history of chronic ear infections and rule out auditory acuity or
auditory processing problems. Auditory processing has also often proven
to be a culprit when children have difficulty with short-term auditory
memory. Such children may have difficulty understanding the sounds they
hear (it may take a little longer to comprehend what is heard) or they
struggle with background noise, even when they pass hearing screening
tests. Keep in mind that the brighter the child, the more subtle such
difficulties may be to detect.
If none of the above problems exist, the VIQ-PIQ discrepancy may mean
something else, but ruling out basic problems with vision and audition
has proven to be important. The most common discrepancy we see in
gifted children is like the one described by you, Luc, and vision is
usually the culprit. Vision therapy usually requires 6-9 months, with
exercises practiced daily at home for 15-20 minutes to be effective.
Tests often give us indications of problems which then require
specialists for further evaluation. Following up on such apparent
problems can bring extremely helpful results.
Bobbie Gilman
Luc Kumps wrote:
> Once in a while, we see advice based upon the difference between VIQ and
> PIQ.
> We found sites with long lists of 'how to deal with a kid with a V/P gap'
> (both in school and at home).
> Parents of a child with a LD sometimes tell "we should have known,
with this
> V/P discrepancy".
> A lot of 'issues' are sometimes linked to a V/P gap: ADHD, visual learning
> style, autism, asperger, NLD, ... You name it!
> Therefore, a lot of parents are worried when a gap surfaces from the test
of
> their child.
>
> But when we read scientific studies such a one-to-one relationship never
> surfaces!
> For any LD, it looks as if anything is possible: V>P,V=P and V<P.
Specific
> subtests could indicate problem areas/weaknesses, but the 'blunt knife'
of
> the V/P comparison doesn't really give much insight, so it seems, as opposed
> to other 'averages of a set of subtests'.
> Or maybe we read the wrong reports ;-)
>
> Are there really ANY conclusions one can draw from such a 'gap'?
> Are there any studies of the incidence, magnitude and the meaning of a
V/P
> gap among the gifted population?
> Or should we just bury the gap, and rather concentrate on other 'factors'
> (averages of sets of subtest) in the tests?
>
> We often read stories of children who had a 'gap' at a younger age (WPPSI),
> which disappeared mysteriously a few years later (WISC)...
> (perhaps this is a result of the 'unreliability' of the tests at younger
> age?)
>
> In our case (WPPSI, age 4y3m) V=150, P=118. Strange enough, the computer
> calculated TIQ=150. Must be a flaw in the software, right?
>
> Luc K (Felix jun98)
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 00:59:06 -0700
From: Kathi Kearney <kkearney@ttlc.net>
Subject: Re: ASAT: Which test/grade to use?
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Message-id: <BC82995A.C40F%kkearney@ttlc.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=MS_Mac_OE_3162675547_1706479_MIME_Part
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Leese wrote:
<<<We have used the Stanford and the California (both one year above
level)
and receiving 99%tile scores. The Johns Hopkins SCAT test (due to my grade
placement error) scored the student against kids 4 grades above their public
school grade and the child still qualified. The child is homeschooled and
does work 2 grades above level.
What do you think about jumping two grade levels above their "public"
school
grade on a group achievement test? Our state requires a "nationally normed"
test so we'd like to use the level and test that will yield the most useful
results. We'd like suggestions both for the best test within these limits
and grade placement for the tests.>>>>
Well now, Leese -- the answer to this question depends more on your state's
homeschool law, unfortunately, than on which test will give you the most
information.
In some states, you must score at or above a certain percentile rank on a
nationally normed achievement test in order for your homeschool program not
to be put "on probation." In many states which have this sort of law,
the
percentile is quite high -- I believe both NH and NY state require the 40th
percentile, or higher.
So, if you chose to do an out-of-level achievement test in order to get
useful information, you *could* run the risk of the child scoring below the
40th percentile (as compared to older students), but then having the state
or local school district (depending on who the scores go to in your state)
saying a 39th percentile is a 39th percentile, and deciding to put your
program on probation.
If this is the situation in your state (or, for those few states where
homeschooling comes under local district approval, your district), then I'd
say don't give the out of level test, give the regular on-grade-level test.
You don't want to potentially jeopardize your right to homeschool, just for
giving an out-of-level test.
If your state homeschool law requires testing, you can always give both the
on-grade-level, age-appropriate test to satisfy state regulations and then
give the out-of-level test for your own information and use.
This advice generally contradicts much of what I believe about testing --
that testing should be useful, instructionally relevant, and shouldn't be
driven by politics. But the right to continue to homeschool is an option
that gifted children *have* to have, especially when the winds of school
"reform" mitigate so much against gifted children having access to
appropriate education in conventional settings. You shouldn't jeopardize
that right over one test.
The other option, of course, is having an individual achievement test such
as the WJ-III, WIAT-II, K-TEA, or PIAT administered by a qualified examiner
instead. These are all nationally normed tests with ceilings up through 12th
grade (college level for the WJ-III).
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<TITLE>Re: ASAT: Which test/grade to use?</TITLE>
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<BODY>
Leese wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><<<<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT
FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS">We=
have used the Stanford and the California (both one year above level) and r=
eceiving 99%tile scores. The Johns Hopkins SCAT test (due to my grade placem=
ent error) scored the student against kids 4 grades above their public schoo=
l grade and the child still qualified. The child is homeschooled and does wo=
rk 2 grades above level. <BR>
</FONT></FONT> <BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS">What
do you think about ju=
mping two grade levels above their "public" school grade on
a grou=
p achievement test? Our state requires a "nationally normed"
test =
so we'd like to use the level and test that will yield the most useful resul=
ts. We'd like suggestions both for the best test within these limits and gra=
de placement for the tests.>>>><BR>
</FONT></FONT><BR>
Well now, Leese -- the answer to this question depends more on your
s=
tate's homeschool law, unfortunately, than on which test will give you the m=
ost information.<BR>
<BR>
In some states, you must score at or above a certain percentile rank on a n=
ationally normed achievement test in order for your homeschool program not t=
o be put "on probation." In many states which have this sort
of la=
w, the percentile is quite high -- I believe both NH and NY state require th=
e 40th percentile, or higher.<BR>
<BR>
So, if you chose to do an out-of-level achievement test in order to get use=
ful information, you *could* run the risk of the child scoring below the 40t=
h percentile (as compared to older students), but then having the state or l=
ocal school district (depending on who the scores go to in your state) sayin=
g a 39th percentile is a 39th percentile, and deciding to put your program o=
n probation.<BR>
<BR>
If this is the situation in your state (or, for those few states where home=
schooling comes under local district approval, your district), then I'd say
=
don't give the out of level test, give the regular on-grade-level test. You
=
don't want to potentially jeopardize your right to homeschool, just for givi=
ng an out-of-level test.<BR>
<BR>
If your state homeschool law requires testing, you can always give both the=
on-grade-level, age-appropriate test to satisfy state regulations and then
=
give the out-of-level test for your own information and use.<BR>
<BR>
This advice generally contradicts much of what I believe about testing -- t=
hat testing should be useful, instructionally relevant, and shouldn't be dri=
ven by politics. But the right to continue to homeschool is an option that g=
ifted children *have* to have, especially when the winds of school "ref=
orm" mitigate so much against gifted children having access to appropri=
ate education in conventional settings. You shouldn't jeopardize that right
=
over one test.<BR>
<BR>
The other option, of course, is having an individual achievement test such =
as the WJ-III, WIAT-II, K-TEA, or PIAT administered by a qualified examiner
=
instead. These are all nationally normed tests with ceilings up through 12th=
grade (college level for the WJ-III).</BLOCKQUOTE>
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