Hi List Members,
Just a little reminder about our guest expert, Kathi Kearney's conference
titled Homeschooling the Gifted which begins this Thursday, September 18th -
US time. Also here is a list of pre-conference links:
BASIC INFO ON HOMESCHOOLING & HOMESCHOOLING THE GIFTED:
"Staying Home From School" by Lynn Schnaiburg (Education Week):
http://www.edweek.org/ew/vol-15/38home.h15
"Homeroom: Debunking the Myths of Homeschooling" by Lisa Rivero:
http://www.giftedbooks.com/aart_rivero.html
"Homeschooling Gifted Students" An Introductory Guide for Parents" by
Jacque Ensign (ERIC Digest):
http://ericec.org/digests/e543.html
>>
"Homeschooling Highly Gifted Children": by Kathi Kearney:
http://www.hollingworth.org/HomSchHG.html
"When Schools Fail: Is Homeschooling Right for You and Your Highly
Gifted Child?" by Karen Morse: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/schools_fail.htm
PARENT STORIES:
"Radical Possibilities for the Profoundly Gifted" by Gay:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/radical_possibility.htm
"Asynchrony: Homeschooling an Exceptionally Gifted Child" by Hilary Cohen:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/asynchrony.htm
"Highly Gifted Children at Home" by Karen Morse:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/hg_at_home.htm
"Homeschooling: A Family Affair" by Suzy:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/home_schooling.htm
This information is also posted on the website
http://www.neiu.edu/~ourgift
Please invite others who may have an interest in this topic:)
Kind regards,
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
Hi List Members,
I am opening the conference - with my welcome to our guest expert Kathi
Kearney. Yes, I know this is earlier than what I planned. I hope you are all
flexible and understand that I will not have access to the internet at the
previously planned time for my opening welcome to all of you the list members
and our guest. Therefore, I will open this conference early - for my part.
Kathi - we are so excited as a list that you are volunteering your time and
expertise on the topic Homeschooling The Gifted. The links you have provided
are wonderful. Please list members, take the time read, so you can be prepared
to participate.
Even though the conference is officially open, PLEASE DO NOT Post until our
guest expert, Kathi Kearney, posts her opening statement scheduled for
Thursday, September 18th.
I apologize that I will be away from an internet connection. Life has many
surprises and I hope you all understand my need for flexibility.
AGain, wait until Kathi Kearney posts first:)
Kind regards,
Sally L
Welcome to the e-conference on Homeschooling Gifted Children, and thank you
to everyone for inviting me to be the guest speaker! (or is that "guest
wordprocessor" LOL!)
I have divided up this three-day conference into three separate topics:
DAY 1: THE "NUTS AND BOLTS" OF HOMESCHOOLING GIFTED CHILDREN: A brief
introduction to the history of homeschooling gifted children, followed by an
exploration of the following questions: How do I know if homeschooling is
right for our family? When should I take a gifted child out of school? What
about curriculum? Which homeschooling approaches or methods are right for my
child (and our family)? What about enrichment in a homeschooling setting?
What about acceleration? What unusual legal issues might arise when
homeschooling a gifted child?
DAY 2: HOMESCHOOLING GIFTED CHILDREN AT THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL: Many gifted
children who homeschool and are allowed to progress at their own rate end up
beginning high school level work in some subjects before they are of typical
high school age (sometimes many years before!) Thus, the second day of the
conference will focus specifically on issues surrounding homeschooling
gifted children who are ready for high school level curriculum in at least
one area. We will focus on such questions as how to know when a gifted child
is ready for high school level work, how to create transcripts, preparing
for college, and managing courses at dual (or triple, or quadruple. . .)
grade levels all at the same time in the same child.
DAY 3: POTPOURRI: QUESTIONS, RESOURCES, AND HOW HOMESCHOOLING IS CHANGING
THE FACE OF GIFTED EDUCATION. The third day is "anything goes!" Feel free to
ask any questions, from those about curriculum to policy issues to the
future of homeschooling.
This conference will work best if everyone participates with questions,
comments, and lively discussion! I look forward to meeting you all!
Hi Kathi!
First let me say
thank you so much for extending your help and expertise to this group.
I am sure it will mean so much to so many. Also, I have never done
one of these conferences before, so if I'm jumping the gun or doing something
wrong, please feel free to let me know! :oP
Homeschooling
has always been right for our family. I don't think I ever wanted to send
my daughter to school. However, those were for my own reasons, not
because I thought my daughter was gifted. I thought any child could learn
like her if their parents spent more time with them.
I
"officially" started homeschooling when my daughter was 4, 2nd term
in January. She finished the whole year by May. It was as if I
could not stop her. So, in September, I let her go into 1st grade.
I was quite suprised when she was no longer willing! I was using
Abeka. 2 months into it I decided this was too much and switched to Alpha
Omega. She was ok with this, but then, 2 months later, she seen the Abeka
books and said, Can I do the fun stuff again Mama? :o)
Well, she did
not really like it in 1st or 2nd grade, but I did not know what to do. So
this year I have tried to make a change by doing a lot of writing for her, (her
handwriting is terrible and she hates to write, I always made her do it anyway,
but I'm tired of fighting about it), trying to skip over repetitive things, the
Abeka math is very repetitive so I just heard of ALEKS, we started that
yesterday. Added French and some unit study for Science, Edventures for
science and art.
Here's the
kicker...... The first 4 days of school, she says, she LOVES 3rd
grade! I am so happy.....2nd week, I'm bored. What can I do?
She asked us for so long to teach her to play chess, (we did not think she
could before we found out about giftedness) so we taught her last year, now
she's bored....it's too slow.
So I guess my
question comes into the "What curriculum to use and which homeschooling
method is right for me?" category. I'm pretty sure
regular stuff doesn't work! LOL Your help is appreciated!
Thanks,
Stephanie
Kathi
Kearney <kkearney@midcoast.com> wrote:
Welcome to the e-conference on Homeschooling Gifted Children, and
thank you
to everyone for inviting me to be the guest speaker! (or is that "guest
wordprocessor" LOL!)
I have divided up this three-day conference into three separate topics:
DAY 1: THE "NUTS AND BOLTS" OF HOMESCHOOLING GIFTED CHILDREN: A brief
introduction to the history of homeschooling gifted children, followed by an
exploration of the following questions: How do I know if homeschooling is
right for our family? When should I take a gifted child out of school? What
about curriculum? Which homeschooling approaches or methods are right for my
child (and our family)? What about enrichment in a homeschooling setting?
What about acceleration? What unusual legal issues might arise when
homeschooling a gifted child?
Stephanie wrote:
<<<<<Here's the kicker...... The first 4 days of school,
she says, she LOVES 3rd grade! I am so happy.....2nd week, I'm bored.
What can I do? She asked us for so long to teach her to play chess,
(we did not think she could before we found out about giftedness) so we taught
her last year, now she's bored....it's too slow.
So I guess my question comes into the "What curriculum to use and which
homeschooling method is right for me?" category.
I'm pretty sure regular stuff doesn't work! LOL
Your help is appreciated! >>>>>
A parent homeschooling a gifted child has the same problem a regular classroom
teacher of a gifted child has (and even the same problem the gifted ed. teacher
has!) and that is that these children practically eat the curriculum up for
breakfast and then have nothing left for lunch and dinner!!
One key is getting them into the right instructional level of curriculum to
begin with. Textbook series and programs like Calvert, if you choose a more
traditional approach, have placement tests.
But gifted children also, as Leta Hollingworth put it, often "excel in
'thinking things together'" and making interdisciplinary connections. If
you have a child like this, a more unschooling/relaxed homschooling approach,
driven in part by the child's intense interests, may work.
But if you are using a "regular" curriculum, no matter what it is --
a textbook series, Calvert, A Beka, etc. -- then it's *very* important to pick
the right instructional level to begin with and not work that's too easy for
the child.
I'd also remind everyone that gifted children often seem to have
"cognitive leaps" in their development, so a program and curriculum
that was just fine a semester ago or a month ago, can need to be changed today
(this is just as true in regular school placements as in homeschooling by the
way).
But I do find that people homeschooling gifted children who use traditional
curriculum have to budget much more money for curriculum materials, because
they either select materials that are too easy to begin with and have to buy a
higher level; or the material itself is broken into bite-size pieces and moves
too slowly and doesn't give a gifted child the "big picture" that
they often crave; or the curriculum material focuses on lower-level cognitive
skills, rather than higher-level thinking.
At least now you can immediately sell unwanted used (or new!) curriculum on
eBay or Vegsource, rather than having to wait for the annual state "used
curriculum sale" like you had to do 10 years ago!
Kathi,
Thanks
so much for being the conference speaker. I wonder if you could address
choosing curriculum and making adaptations for a student with poor visual
spatial skills? I homeschool our 16 year old son who is both gifted and
has learning differences. I'd love some suggestions for teaching more
creatively to address this challenge. He prefers to do his work orally
whenever possible, but with college looming ahead in two years I want
to be open to using other techniques. For example he opened his history
book for this year and the confusing format of the text drove him absolutely
crazy! How to cope?
Hi everyone!! It's great to see the conference has started. . . .
>DAY 1: THE "NUTS AND BOLTS" OF HOMESCHOOLING GIFTED CHILDREN:
>
Perhaps we can add a question or two? What about preparing for
deschooling and hyperschooling?! When we started homeschooling I was
prepared for C to deschool but NO one warned me about the intense, long
number of hours a content-starved child may want to spend learning.
Thus the term hyperschooling!
For those considering homeschooling or those who have just pulled a
child from school, it may be helpful. . .
Lucy asked:
<<<<<
I wonder if you could address choosing curriculum and making adaptations for a
student with poor visual spatial skills? I homeschool our 16 year old son
who is both gifted and has learning differences. I'd love some suggestions for
teaching more creatively to address this challenge. He prefers to do his work
orally whenever possible, but with college looming ahead in two years I want to
be open to using other techniques. For example he opened his history book
for this year and the confusing format of the text drove him absolutely crazy!
How to cope?>>>>>
First of all, has he had a vision evaluation by a developmental optometrist?
This sounds like a vision problem! (and one that a regular optometrist or
ophthalmologist may not catch).
Secondly, what do you mean by "learning differences"? A diagnosed
learning disability? If so, he may qualify for talking books for the blind or
dyslexic -- and accommodations such as oral tests in college. But you need the
full documentation from testing to get this.
I know what you mean about modern textbooks -- they are so visually
"busy" in their formats (I guess, to try to compete with the
internet!) that they can be distracting for ADHD kids, too visual for kids with
poor visual-spatial skills, not to mention the stultifying language in some of
them. Yesterday I was reviewing the new social studies textbook our school has
adopted. Yes, I was distracted by the visuals. Yes, I was distracted by the
politically correct language the book chose to use.
When you get a textbook like that, sometimes purchasing the study guide helps
Tonya wrote:
> Perhaps we can add a question or two? What about preparing for
> deschooling and hyperschooling?! When we started homeschooling I was
> prepared for C to deschool but NO one warned me about the intense, long
> number of hours a content-starved child may want to spend learning.
> Thus the term hyperschooling!
>
> For those considering homeschooling or those who have just pulled a
> child from school, it may be helpful. . .>>>>>
"Deschooling" -- a period of time after removing a child from a less than
satisfactory school situation in order to homeschool -- is well-documented
in the homeschooling literature, especially amongst those who write about a
more "unschooling" approach. "Deschooling" refers to allowing the child a
period of time to decompress from a bad school situation, and not doing a
lot of formal academics during that time. I have heard various homeschooling
authors say that a general expectation is one month of "deschooling" for
every year of a bad school situation.
"Hyperschooling" is Tonya's own word-invention, but it describes very well
what happens to some gifted children who have been denied an opportunity to
learn at their own appropriate pace in a regular school situation, and
decide to remedy that themselves, as soon as they begin homeschooling.
And I'm going to let Tonya tell her daughter's story about "hyperschooling"
as an example!!! (Plus Tonya's reaction to this "event"!)
Tonya wrote:
>
> Perhaps we can add a question or two? What about preparing for
> deschooling and hyperschooling?! When we started homeschooling I was
> prepared for C to deschool but NO one warned me about the intense, long
> number of hours a content-starved child may want to spend learning.
> Thus the term hyperschooling!
Good point, Tonya!
My daughter had a long list of things she wanted to learn about when we
started homeschooling, 3/4 way through 4th grade. Besides finding
regular school slow and boring, it took up so much of her day that she
didn't have time for the subjects she was really interested in learning.
She was "chomping at the bit" to learn! I remember her coming into my
bedroom when I was trying to go to sleep at night asking me more
questions about what she had been learning about during the day. Boy,
was I tired those first few months. ;^)
I had expected to deschool, too, but we didn't deschool at all. Perhaps
that's because we were lucky enough to get her out of school before too
much damage was done to her love of learning.
Mary
>
> "Deschooling" -- a period of time after removing a child from a less than
> satisfactory school situation in order to homeschool
Okay,
I want to give a very brief history of my middle son's
school/deschool/homeschool situation in order to ask advice. I will TRY to
make this short:
DS entered kindergarten with more than enough knowledge, excelled at
everything, but teacher thought "there was 'something' wrong with him"
because he would wander off daydreaming, etc. Went to see psychologists
for counseling at her recommendation. First grade -- had a WONDERFUL
teacher (who is still DS's hero) that understood how extremely bright DS
was and allowed him total freedom in the classroom to pursue his unique
interests. THis was the best year DS ever had in public school. He
really showed his giftedness in this setting.
Second through third grades -- rigid teachers that called me in like
every day to express concern over DS (I worked at the school at the time
as an aide). I believed them, took him to yet more doctors, who put him
on meds for ADD inattentive. No difference in behavior or daydreaming
because of the meds. Their punishment was to take away the things he
LIKED in order to make him do the subjects he didn't like.
I got frustrated by his fourth grade year and pulled him out to
homeschool. We had a wonderful time together. I made few demands on him
in the area of handwriting (his most difficult area) but we did many
hands-on projects.
Due to me becoming a single parent this year ( having to support the
whole family) I had to take a different job his fifth grade year, and
didn't think I could homeschool any longer. Put him back into a regular
public school classroom (different school - didn't tell them of the
problems in previous school, because I wanted no bias going in.) First
few weeks were great, then he just stopped working and got almost ALL
F's (except he was the school champion in accelerated reader -- all he
did was read and get points, until they finally took all books away from
him in an effort to get him to do work). They put him on an IEP as BD
because he was refusing to work.
We went through two more years of public school that way -- with an IEP
allowing him an aide to help him stay motivated, but much of the time
he spent in detention anyway -- just sitting there and singing. He
wasn't doing anything "bad" -- he just wasn't doing anything at all! I
took him for intensive independent testing (my expense) to see if there
was a learning disability. It showed him a higher IQ than even the
school thought, but with dyslexia/dysgraphia. They didn't really seem
to want to change his IEP from BD to GT/LD or GT/LD/BD.
So back to homeschool for 8th grade. I didn't get much work out of him.
Most people said he just needed to de-school. Okay fine.
The next year they opened a new alternative, charter school 30 miles
away and we tried it. Work at your own pace. DS still took a lot of
one-on-one time with teachers to keep him on-task. But it was working.
The following fall, their school's popularity boomed, the enrollment
tripled, and I got a nice note saying "this isn't working out" for DS
and he was not invited to come back (there was no IEP there because of
the type of school it was). I think he was too time-intensive for
them. So at this point, DS feels like he has had at least three
"failures" -- public school the first time, the second time, and this
charter school. After another semester homeschooling, he decides he
would like to TRY regular public high school (which I don't think will
work because he is not used to the structure of that) and since the
principal is a friend of mine, he agrees to give DS a two-week trial
period. Week one went pretty good except he was too shy to dress out
for PE. Week two went a little better, so we extended the trial. Then
the bottom fell out and DS went back to doing nothing, shutting down,
and was shown the door. Failure again (although I see it as something
he could overcome, he does not see it that way).
So we are now back at homeschool at age 16, and he is totally shut down
from learning. Doesn't want to even pick up a book. I'm just trying to
pull him along to get him as far as his GED. He doesn't even want that
anymore, much less the original plans he had for higher education. He
now absolutely hates learning and believes he is a failure at
everything. He is extremely bright and could work through the
curriculum in half the time as most if he would just sit down and do it.
It is so frustrating for me as a parent to see a very bright child just
give up and quit.
Do I have any hope of him regaining his desire for learning at this age?
Tracy
thought
I'd kick in my 2 cents, even though I am not a homeschooler. However,
many gifted schoolschoolers need homeschool-style supplementation, so I have
some experience with this.
I
have found that it is very difficult to know what level of material is
appropriate and that sometimes I have had to start low and allow my daughter to
progress rapidly through something in order to find the right level of
material. In addition, even though it seemed very counter-intuitive to a
regular learner like me, I had to become very sensitive to J's ability and
desire to skip over material. It is only after the fact that I am able to
realize that she has already learned what she decided to skip over, even though
it was not learned in a formal way.
Leslie
______________________
Kathi
wrote:
I know what you mean about modern textbooks -- they are so visually
"busy" in their formats (I guess, to try to compete with the
internet!) that they can be distracting for ADHD kids, too visual for kids with
poor visual-spatial skills, not to mention the stultifying language in some of
them. Yesterday I was reviewing the new social studies textbook our school has
adopted. Yes, I was distracted by the visuals. Yes, I was distracted by the
politically correct language the book chose to use.
When you get a textbook like that, sometimes purchasing the study guide helps.
Kathi:
May
I pop in here with an add-on to wonderful rec. by you.
V/S
or Associative learners may also find that too much visual input is distracting . They prefer their own movies playing in their
head created by the words they are reading! This is especially true when the
graphics do not jive with the word "picture" creating a disconnect.
Also for the VS kid it has to be esthetically pleasing and some of these
graphics used in different texts are garish and serve no purpose but to
"spice up" the page.
When
we cover a new unit in history for example. I have found it effective with my
child to show a documentary from a great source such as national Geographic or
the History Channel as a visual anchor. Reading plain text, after that
point, comes alive with the images set in place from the era and geographical
location.
Thanks
for doing this conference Kathi!
Best,
Kristine
Welcome, Kathi, to this conference email list, and thank you for your many
contributions over the years to discussion of homeschooling among families
of gifted children.
You know me, of course, from a "Brand X" email list and from emails back and
forth between our Web sites. I've thought of a question for this discussion
I haven't seen discussed in quite these terms in the online places where I
hang out:
How do parents deal with the career tradeoffs involved in homeschooling
gifted children?
I get the impression that a large part of the GENERAL homeschooling
population consists of families that basically buy in to the idea of one
parent (nearly always the mother) being home with the children while they
are young, while the other parent (almost always the father) works outside
the home, possibly overtime, to pay the bills. Among the gifted population,
there seems to be a particularly large percentage of parents whose own level
of higher education is such that probably both parents expected to be in
full-time outside-the-home careers during much of their children's minority.
Moreover, those parents who financed their higher education with loans
probably have an urgent rationale for aiming for higher rather than lower
incomes during the first decade or so after completing higher education.
Just to get the discussion rolling, I'll describe my own situation. I grew
up in a home in which my mom was employed sporadically as a registered nurse
(usually doing surgical nursing at research hospital) when I was growing up,
but was mostly a stay-at-home mom when I and my three younger siblings were
younger than school age. My dad was an industrial engineer and certainly the
chief income-earner during all of my childhood. I can tell my dad always
desired to spend more time with us kids than his job made feasible, and can
also tell that my mom gained a lot of satisfaction from her role as a
mother, but also from her career, which she resumed full-time when my
youngest sister got into junior high. A few years before that, when I first
heard of the bra-burning demonstrations of the early "women's liberation"
movement, my first thought was, "Great, this would be a way that dads could
spend more time with their kids."
My wife grew up in Taiwan back when it was a third world country and at
times both her parents had to work full-time or even overtime just to have
enough to eat. Her mom did a lot of home piecework in my wife's early
childhood, after her dad's hitherto very successful business went bankrupt.
Taiwan had a very Wild West free-enterprise system in those days, and every
young person expected to work full-time outside the home after growing up,
as indeed most people in Taiwan do today. (Homeschooling, although legal, is
VERY rare in Taiwan.) My wife is the youngest of six siblings in her family,
and attended a boarding school for the six years of junior high and senior
high, a school with both boy and girl students but strict sex segregation in
senior-high classes.
So over the years my wife and I have mixed and matched parenting
responsibilities in a variety of ways. We each got our last higher education
degree after marrying, but before having children, and since having children
we have attempted always to have at least one parent home for
round-the-clock child care. Sometimes I have had work that involved
MONTH-LONG business trips out of state, and sometimes I have been in more
conventional commute-to-the-office kinds of jobs. Currently my wife is the
main "breadwinner" and I am the main stay-at-home parent. I like being
involved in my children's education A LOT, but I have noticed that it is
generally true that men form much of their social life with other men
through employment associations, which I don't have in the conventional form
at the moment. I would probably be happiest in outside-the-home employment
if we moved back to Taiwan (where we lived December 1998-July 2001), but
that has its own set of tradeoffs [grin]. For now, my wife likes her work as
a piano teacher, which pays the bills, and likes having the kids in an
environment like that of the United States. She tells me to feel that my
current occupation is "private school principal," and that makes me feel
better about what I'm doing at the moment.
I get the impression that some homeschooling moms feel varying kinds of
pressure, from inside or from outside, about choosing to devote substantial
time to their children's education rather than to earning cash income for
the family. I'd appreciate hearing from you, Kathi, or from any onlooker to
this discussion, about helpful ways for families to balance competing claims
on the parents' time while the kids are growing up.
Karl M. Bunday
Corin wrote, under the " visual spatial question" subject,
> Isn't that the truth! And I'm also seeing that vision therapy has helped
> tremendously with this issue for my dd.
Are you referring to optometric vision therapy, or to something else? My son
has had vision therapy, as it was labeled, from an optometrist here in
Minnesota after M.D.s in Taiwan and optometrists here both confirmed that he
has strabismus (eyes that don't point in the same direction naturally). The
vision therapy my son had consisted mostly of exercises in having each eye
independently, and both eyes together, track printed text on a page. It had
a very helpful effect on my son's reading ability. I'm curious about whether
you sought the same kind of treatment for a similar issue, or if the vision
therapy you sought was something different, for a different issue.
> She doesn't like 'busy' stuff --
> hates magazines, for example, even Kids Discover --
This is interesting to me, because my son has always liked busy pages. For
example, Dorling Kindersley illustrated books, which are almost an archetype
of the busy page, have long been favorites with my son. He also likes the
Lego catalog and other printed matter in picture-filled, three-ring-circus
formats.
> and she used to need
> a lot of white space on the page (which was annoying as it limited her
> to reading books that were usually below her ability & interest level).
A recent discovery in our home was that my son reads DRAMATICALLY faster in
large print books for baby boomer adults. I requested a copy of the first
volume of the Lord of the Rings trilogy from the local library for my son a
couple of months ago, and accidentally ended up with the large print
edition. My son blazed through that much faster than through the Oxford
World's Classics paperback edition of The Three Musketeers he had read just
before. So then I intentionally requested more large print books for him. I
discovered that there are now many interesting titles available in large
print editions, doubtless because Baby Boomers like me are getting to be of
the age that we have presbyopia. I like those large print editions myself!
This matter of requesting large print books might be something other
families would like to try, to see if it turns up interesting books with
better readability of each page.
> Since she began VT a few months ago, I have seen her make great strides
> in that respect, incluidng picking up books thatwere "too crowded" a
> while back, and having more tolerance for somewhat busier text.
My son's reading scores on achievement tests have jumped up substantially
since he finished his course of vision therapy, and his percentile rank on
reading tests is still on an upward trajectory. More to the point, he enjoys
reading and reads all the time, in books of all different formats.
The population incidence of strabismus is supposed to be about 5 percent,
and higher in close relatives of other people who have it. (My son has
cousins in Taiwan with strabismus. No one in my family has it, which is why
I didn't spot this issue quite as soon as I should have. My son was a
"spontaneous" early reader before his third birthday, but later plateaued in
reading ability for a while. Other parents in this discussion may want to
check about strabismus if their children seem slow in reading development.
Karl M. Bunday
I am a working single mom(50-60 hrs a week), even when I was married ,I was "in
charge" of education. I am now attempting to homeschool my 5 yr old son using
a bit of unschooling, tutoring and my attention after work. I was reviewing the
time I have spent in the last few months doing "prep" work and gathering
materials etc.There is more prep time than actual homeschooling time.I for one,
am feeling the pressure and second Karl's request.Any tips, comments etc.?
Barbara
Karl M. Bunday wrote:
>Corin wrote, under the " visual spatial question" subject,
>
>
>
>>Isn't that the truth! And I'm also seeing that vision therapy has helped
>>tremendously with this issue for my dd.
>>
>>
>
>Are you referring to optometric vision therapy, or to something else?
>
She does both vision efficiency therapy and vision perception therapy,
with Dr Lianne Rice. There's more information on her website, at
http://www.visiondiva.com Look under "services"
Corin.
I'll chime in on this subject.
I have never been a homeschooler and both me and my husband have careers
outside the home which neither of us would have given up for homeschooling
a child.
I was once told, on an e-mail list, that if I loved my daughter I would
homeschool her. My opinion on this is that it is because I love my daughter
that I do not homeschool her. I beleive that each of us has certain
temperaments and abilities and that we structure our lives to accomodate
those.
That being said, both my husband and I have been very involved in J's
schooling. This has required considerable time in advocacy and in providing
some degree of education at home, if not strictly homeschooling. We both
have ensured a certain degree of flexibility in our work schedules and have
been able to accomodate J when we had to be at home for any sort of
schooling. Of course, with J in school much of the day, the home part did
not usually occur during our working hours, anyway.
Karl M. Bunday wrote:
>I like those large print editions myself!
>This matter of requesting large print books might be something other
>families would like to try, to see if it turns up interesting books with
>better readability of each page.
>
You know, I could try that with my dd... Otoh, I accidentally got a
large print book from the library, and I just could not read it. I can't
tell you why, except that I think there was *too much* white space for me!
Corin
<snip>
> How do parents deal with the career tradeoffs
> involved in homeschooling
> gifted children?
>
For us, this is an on-going struggle. In the last
year, we moved -- for many reasons, but the fact that
dh's previous job was nearly 50% international travel
certainly was a big factor. Right now, we are
benefiting from a few quarters of slow sales -- travel
budgets were slashed, and dh is home for the rest of
the year!
I put myself through Harvard, and believe me, it does
eat away at me -- especially when the alumni magazine
arrives in my mailbox -- to hear about the exciting
careers and comfortable lifestyles, etc., enjoyed by
classmates. I know that the stress that would come
with putting Origami back in school would be horrible
for him as well as for the rest of the family, so I
keep doing what I am doing.
More than the opportunity costs of not working
full-time, though, I find the mental/intellectual
restlessness that follows me everywhere to be quite
maddening.
> I get the impression that some homeschooling moms
> feel varying kinds of
> pressure, from inside or from outside, about
> choosing to devote substantial
> time to their children's education rather than to
> earning cash income for
> the family.
<snip>
I faced a lot of pressure from my parents to
home-school. They do not even approve of my efforts
to work part-time -- or, as far as I can tell, of my
desire to at least have a hobby. My husband, bless
him, is very supportive -- both of the decision to
homeschool and of my strong desire to rebuild some
sort of career.
Of course, there also is all kinds of internal
pressure (for me, at least) to do it all -- be the
super homeschooling mom while running a successful
(and lucrative) business from home; this is a real
challenge with my kids!
As things stand right now: I work *very* part-time --
from home, at night. My husband is responsible for
the boys when he comes home. I am taking steps to
re-build or re-direct my career, since I feel that my
current work (translating) holds little long-term
potential. I am searching for that dream career
wherein I can work part-time now (on my own time!) and
build to full-time work later, when the kids are
older.
As my boys grow and become more independent, I am --
slowly -- finding more time for my work. They also
are pulling me toward unschooling; many days they
would rather follow their own passions without
interference from me. I am hoping that the intense
effort required to feed their hunger for information
now will pay off in the longer term. That is, since
they are moving at such an accelerated pace, I hope
that in two or three years all three of us will be
able to devote ourselves to our own work during the
day.
That's the view from here.
SarahG
Leslie wrote:
<<<<I have found that it is very difficult to know what level of material
is appropriate and that sometimes I have had to start low and allow my daughter
to progress rapidly through something in order to find the right level of
material. In addition, even though it seemed very counter-intuitive to a
regular learner like me, I had to become very sensitive to J's ability and
desire to skip over material. It is only after the fact that I am able to
realize that she has already learned what she decided to skip over, even though
it was not learned in a formal way.>>>>>
Leslie's absol.utely right (and you can imagine what a problem this is in
regular schools!!!!!)
sometimes gifted kids use materials for awhile, or delve deeply in an
area of study, then never finish the "products" that were supposed to
"demonstrate" their learning, because they have already learned what
they desired.
I'm reminded of the story of the "omnibus prodigy" in Feldman's book
"Nature's Gambit." He exhausted his mother as a preschoooler, trying
to learn about a dozen different languages. She got tutors and everything. Then
all of a sudden he stopped. She finaly asked him why, and he said he'd learned
what he was trying to learn -- he'd figured out which languages had a common
ancestrall language.
Corin wrote:
> So I guess my question is, as unschoolers, how do I make sure that my
> child actually covers the basics at some point, and how do I walk that
> line between giving them the challenges that they need without causing a
> meltdown because it's "too hard"?>>>>>
Well, you'll know if it's "too hard" or "too-something-else" right away if
you are getting meltdowns, and at that point it may be wise to take a break
and change tactics.
Those who fully buy in to the "unschooling" philosophy would say that when a
child needs to cover the basics, they will learn it themselves, and usually
quickly.
If you haven't already read some of the classic writings on unschooling, I
strongly recommend it.
One of the best -- as a sort of "year in the life" diary of an unschooling
family with extremely gifted kids, who had had bad experiences in school to
start with -- is Nancy Wallace's "Better than School" (1983, Burdett, NY:
Larson Publications). It's out of print but you can probably get it through
interlibrary loan or on used book sites.
Kristine wrote:
<<<<V/S or Associative learners may also find that too much
visual input is distracting . They prefer their own
movies playing in their head created by the words they are reading! This is
especially true when the graphics do not jive with the word "picture"
creating a disconnect. Also for the VS kid it has to be esthetically pleasing
and some of these graphics used in different texts are garish and serve no
purpose but to "spice up" the page.
When
we cover a new unit in history for example. I have found it effective with my
child to show a documentary from a great source such as national Geographic or
the History Channel as a visual anchor. Reading plain text, after that point,
comes alive with the images set in place from the era and geographical
location.>>>>>
Thanks VERY much, Kristine, for that VERY important post!! and I'd encourage
all of you to ask Kristine more questions about this as she has some excellent
information to share.
(This social studies book our district bought was supposed to be the be-all and
end-all. I started reading it during silent reading time in a classroom
yesterday and nearly fell asleep it was so dull!!!!! And probably *would* have
fallen asleep were it not for the annoying politically correct language.
Instead of grasping any of the meaning I found myself counting the politically
correct comments. . .so now I STILL don't know anything more about Northern vs.
Southern life in 1850!)
Stephanie wrote:
<<<<ok,
can you give me a clue? I'm not sure I understand this....."thinking
things together" I would love to do more relaxed homeschooling, but
I don't think my dd is motivated enough to do anything other than watch
videos/play barbies, ( which are all very elaborate, musicals etc.). I
don't really like tradtional stuff, well, for me, I loved it personally, but
she cant stand it....I am just not sure how to teach the foundation things they
need to know.....
Kathi wrote:
But if you are using a "regular" curriculum, no matter what it is --
a textbook series, Calvert, A Beka, etc. -- then it's *very* important to pick
the right instructional level to begin with and not work that's too easy for
the child.
Hahahahahaha....just thought I'd share.....She is just did her language, 3rd
grade Alpha Omega, (she is already a grade ahead and I'm skipping through) she
came laughing to me...they told me to get a dictionary for these words!
Anxious, struggled, sigh. In 3rd grade? Use a
dictionary for these words???
LOL,>>>>>
LOL indeed, Stephanie -- did it every occur to you that a little girl who is a
grade ahead and "skipping through" the next grade level and doesn't
even need to use a dictionary for the section that it was intended, *might*
*already* know more of the "foundation things" than you are giving
her credit for??? :-)
And, she's not using the Barbies in a traditional way, it sounds. She's using
them to put on musicals? Well, how about having the Barbies act out a
particular historical event?
Rosemarie wrote:
<<<<<Thanks for doing this conference and at a very
opportune time may I add? Kathi as you know my dd10 is presently experiencing
some rather dramatic visual changesŠ.funny thing, she is still a reading
machine for books she wants to read.
I would
appreciate suggestions that may help her during this period that her eyes
aren¹t exactly cooperating? I can see that she doesn¹t tolerate more than 2-3
hours of reading/writing type stuff a day. AS I said before that 2-3 hours is
not including all the reading she regularly does on her own.
She
really gets bored easily and when bored gravitates towards computer games, I
really don¹t think they are good for her right now. <<<<<
Rosemarie, could you try some taped books from the library? After all, this is
a short-term thing, not a long-term solution -- and it would be MUCH better
than using her eyes for computer games when they are tired of reading!!!!!
It's a good thing she isn't in a regular school for 8 hours a day right now,
the reading/near vision activities would be WAY too much!
Karl wrote:
> recent discovery in our home was that my son reads DRAMATICALLY faster in
> large print books for baby boomer adults. I requested a copy of the first
> volume of the Lord of the Rings trilogy from the local library for my son a
> couple of months ago, and accidentally ended up with the large print
> edition. My son blazed through that much faster than through the Oxford
> World's Classics paperback edition of The Three Musketeers he had read just
> before. So then I intentionally requested more large print books for him. I
> discovered that there are now many interesting titles available in large
> print editions, doubtless because Baby Boomers like me are getting to be of
> the age that we have presbyopia. I like those large print editions myself!
> This matter of requesting large print books might be something other
> families would like to try, to see if it turns up interesting books with
> better readability of each page.>>>>
Karl, this is an EXCELLENT idea! (and not just for kids who need vision
therapy, but for little kids who are ready to read advanced books but can't
deal with the tiny print very well).
One reason we selected the pre-algebra/algebra I textbooks that we did for
th 6th grade advanced math students in my school is because this particular
set of books was written for middle school kids, not high school kids (even
though it contains all of high school Algebra I and more). The print is
larger, and there is more white space on the page.
Hello, Kathi and everyone else on this list. This conference comes at a very
opportune time for us. We have a clearly gifted 7yo DD, in a public school
reputed to be among the "very best in town" since last year. Even though
last year she was with the best teacher and was getting more advanced
curriculum in a group setting, we still ended the year feeling disillusioned
over both the quality and standards of the schooling( I volunteered A LOT
and was able to get first hand insight into what really goes on) Her needs
for more were clearly not met, nor were her social and emotional needs. I
might mention that at that time we were new to the public schools in the
U.S. and so wanted to see for ourselves before we came to any conclusions.)
The bar seems to be set so low for every child, and those who are wanting to
excel and learn seem to be shutting off after a few years. I have really
tried to understand the issues and work within the constraints, but ... my
child's needs and interests are at stake here, after all.
We've talked about homeschooling for a while. I have done a lot of reading
in the past few months and I am very much convinced that this would be the
way to go. Now DH after a lot of earlier opposition has even turned around
and begun to think of it as a possible option. ( I am very committed to
finding the best possible scenario for my DD- being "gifted" myself and
having dealt with external expectations, and other issues, throughout my
childhood and early adulthood, motherhood was important business for me,
enough to give up a career as an career professional- nothing else
mattered.)
I am not sure about the other aspects of it though- like being in a social
group etc. Our DD is an only child, and we are really not part of any
religious group, so do not have recourse to groups like church,etc. that
other homeschoolers seem to have. I do not mean to imply any offence to
those of other faiths/ of an eclectic or atheist outlook, its just that most
homeschoolers I have met so far seem to rely heavily on their church for
social groups.
We are off to the GDC next week and are hopeful of getting some useful info
from the evaluation.
I guess today's topics are really relevant to us- how do we know that this
is the right decision to make for the long run? I would appreciate any
feedback, comments, suggestions etc. from the group at large, and of course
Kathi! Thank you again, Kathi for your time!
Anjali P.S. Sorry, I tried to keep it brief, but... :-)
Rosemarie,
This may or may not help (and I'm not Kathy!) but within the past year or 2,
I decided to help my very v/s son, 9, develop his auditory skills. My
younger son is totally auditory in learning so it was natural to begin to
get books on tape. We began using tapes on long road trips but his auditory
attention has improved greatly. He's listened to Tom Sawyer (and then read
the book), Treasure Island, Pride and Prejudice, and Great Expectations,
among other things such as audio magazines, Teaching Company great tapes,
music tapes, spanish tapes, history and geography tapes, etc. I've also
done listening skills with him for the past 2 years and I think that's been
helpful.
I also pulled way back on his computer and tv usage in the past 2 years
and it's been a good thing. His optometrist always told us to have him take
breaks every 15 minutes, anyway. Ds is still very spatial but lately, he's
been spending most of his time playing chess and reading chess books so his
v/s needs are being quite met!
Becca O.
Karl wrote:
>>She tells me to feel that my
current occupation is "private school principal," and that makes me feel
better about what I'm doing at the moment. >>
Wow, I love that line! I'll have to remember (and borrow) it. I just
pulled my 11 year old out of public school last week, so this conference is
particularly timely. As for work, I have a uniquely suited job for a
homeschooling parent -- I work from home, strictly from my computer.
Ironically, I'm finding that it's actually beneficial for my work, because I
have to be more focused and structured to get everything done. I have set
clear ground rules with K -- I must bill two hours a day, so part of the
school time must be done without my intervention. It also follows along
with one of our biggest goals, which is to teach independence while
learning -- not all assignments have to start with a detailed handout that
contains the entire roadmap (like the ubiquetous school ditto).
L.A.
>this discussion, about helpful ways for families to balance competing
claims
>on the parents' time while the kids are growing up.
I was actually a bit surprised by this post since it is opposite my
experiences. I know several other families in our homeschooling group with
kids of varying levels of giftedness, all of whom made the same choice I did
somewhere during pregnancy or before - putting the kids first, our own
careers second. I have plenty of time to pursue my own interests, even with
homeschooling and I've never once felt like homeschooling was competing or
preventing me from doing anything /I/ wanted to do.
I view life as being like a lengthy novel. In this chapter, I am a
homeschooling mom. I don't know what is in the next chapter, but I can relax
and enjoy the one I'm in knowing there are many more to come.
Annette
Kathi
asked:
>>First of
all, has he had a vision evaluation by a developmental optometrist? This sounds
like a vision problem! (and one that a regular optometrist or ophthalmologist
may not catch).
He's
had glasses prescribed by an ophthalmologist, but has not seen a developmental
optometrist. I will have to check on this.
>>Secondly, what do you mean by "learning differences"? A
diagnosed learning disability? If so, he may qualify for talking books for the
blind or dyslexic -- and accommodations such as oral tests in college. But you
need the full documentation from testing to get this.<<
Yes,
he has been diagnosed LD in math and written language with a 20 point
spread between VIQ and PIQ. He excels in verbal skills but has
weaker visual spatial skills and slower processing speed. Homeschooling has
been great - I just wish I had more strategies for helping his gifts flourish
while trying to work around the deficits. Any book recommendations?
Lucy
I'm turning that into our buzz word for the week, I loved it so much :) I
can define it real easy too -
K-2 grades in 12 months
3-4 grades in 7 months
5th grade took us 4.5 months
6th grade took us 2 months
I've asked him to take longer from now on, just so /I/ can keep up with
him - the curriculum is getting tough!
I don't have a question per sey, but rather wanted to share a bit of our
story since I know from the posts already that some are still considering
homeschooling and some are in the early years of figuring out what works
while gaining confidence in the decision to educate their child/ren at home.
We've homeschooled him almost exclusively, though he did spend a year in a
progressive preschool until they advised us to go back to homeschooling. I
knew no packaged curriculum would work, so I did research on my own and used
the following methods thus far -
Unschooling, keeping track of levels using the "What Your * Grader Should
Know" series of books for K-2.
Well Trained Mind for 3-5th grades, since it allowed him to start high
school in some subjects, college in others without detracting from the core
of the curriculum.
>From 5th grade on, we've moved to a more traditional classical education,
which does differ from WTM (which also is a form of classical).
When I saw how fast he was getting through 6th grade, I added in almost all
of another curriculum to our schedule so we are now doing both classical
learning and living books/Charlotte Mason, resulting in 26 subjects per week
being covered.
Here's a summary of where/how/what we're doing, which may be helpful to
others :)
Math - Pre Algebra from a textbook, though we may just move up to Algebra 1
soon as he's passing the end of chapter tests before doing the work. He's
also studying economics at a high school level.
Logic - He's about to start a college introductory logic class.
Grammar/Composition - A traditional 10th grade textbook, along with a
classical writing program, so he does twice as much in this subject.
Science - Again a double subject. He's doing a jr. high level physics course
offered for homeschoolers in our area and is doing a college level astronomy
course at home.
Literature - He's been reading from a college book list for a year now - one
of those "what colleges wish all incoming students had read first" kinds of
lists. We try to tie in about half the reading to history studies, the rest
are just really great books. He goes through about 1 novel (500+ pages) per
week, so it is a large part of his studies.
History - We are enjoying going through history chronologically and using
living books to supplement. He uses Asimov's Chronology of the World as his
main text, which isn't a textbook and I'd rate it to be for college level
students.
Foreign Languages - We do Spanish/French/Latin together, learning vocabulary
for all three simultaneously. This is the one subject he works at age level
for, mainly so I can keep up as languages were my weak subject in school.
Add in fine arts (art history, drawing, music history, instrumental music,
Shakespeare), physical education, current events, nature study, community
service, and a few others, and that's close to all we cover.
He spends less than 3 hours a day, 4 days a week, on school work. I, in
turn, spend an additional 2 or so hours a week doing his daily lesson sheet,
finding resources, et cetera. It leaves us more than enough time to pursue
our many hobbies, to volunteer for a couple of local groups, and to be
incredibly active in 4-H (he's doing 13 projects this year, plus is the club
president.)
He turned 8 on Tuesday and, at this rate, he'll be done with high school by
the age of 12, most likely with a year or more of college-level study
already completed. I wonder what we'll find to do when he's done at 12, but
the local colleges won't admit him for another two years, though it doesn't
stop our forward progress. My son is passionate about learning, knows full
well what level he is at in various subjects and expects continual forward
progress (I sometimes try to sneak in a "fun" book from a lower grade, but
he sees right through it each time and demands the difficult texts).
The one thing I don't have time for in all this is to push him - I'm too
busy hanging on for dear life and trying to enjoy the ride :)
Annette
--- Corin wrote:
> So I guess my question is, as unschoolers, how do I make sure that my
>
> child actually covers the basics at some point, and how do I walk
> that
> line between giving them the challenges that they need without
> causing a
> meltdown because it's "too hard"?
I can ditto Corin's post and add my own question...My pglet is a bit AS
and melts down whenever she makes mistakes. What she is capable of is
immense, what she melts down over is ridiculous. Some days are horrid.
She can't focus enough to read without meds - and the right level of
meds, so we lose time during the day and at night because she can't
settle down. I can see her needing early college, but I'm so
frustrated because she has to exhibit some consistent maturity. How do
you get them comfortable making mistakes when they melt down at the
least frustration, yet have the pg IQ? We are on meds and at the psych
constantly including a therapist, and OT. Yes, when and how do you fit
it all in? I am so tired! I have twin pglets who consume my very
being.
Sheila
Kathy K.
wrote: >>...But I do find that people homeschooling gifted children
who use traditional curriculum have to budget much more money for curriculum
materials, because they either select materials that are too easy to begin with
and have to buy a higher level; or the material itself is broken into bite-size
pieces and moves too slowly and doesn't give a gifted child the "big picture"
that they often crave; or the curriculum material focuses on lower-level
cognitive skills, rather than higher-level thinking. ..<<
Karl wrote:
<<<<< I've thought of a question for this discussion
> I haven't seen discussed in quite these terms in the online places where I
> hang out:
>
> How do parents deal with the career tradeoffs involved in homeschooling
> gifted children? >>>>>
And then proceeded to elaborate:
> I get the impression that a large part of the GENERAL homeschooling
> population consists of families that basically buy in to the idea of one
> parent (nearly always the mother) being home with the children while they
> are young, while the other parent (almost always the father) works outside
> the home, possibly overtime, to pay the bills. Among the gifted population,
> there seems to be a particularly large percentage of parents whose own level
> of higher education is such that probably both parents expected to be in
> full-time outside-the-home careers during much of their children's minority.
> Moreover, those parents who financed their higher education with loans
> probably have an urgent rationale for aiming for higher rather than lower
> incomes during the first decade or so after completing higher education. . . .
(good stuff snipped here relevant to Karl's own situation, giving a perfect
example. . .)
> I get the impression that some homeschooling moms feel varying kinds of
> pressure, from inside or from outside, about choosing to devote substantial
> time to their children's education rather than to earning cash income for
> the family. I'd appreciate hearing from you, Kathi, or from any onlooker to
> this discussion, about helpful ways for families to balance competing claims
> on the parents' time while the kids are growing up.>>>>>
Karl's post actually brings up a MUCH larger issue when it comes to gifted
children and homeschooling.
For the most part, unlike the majority of families who decide to homeschool
(with the definite exception of those homeschooling special needs children),
*most* families who end up homeschooling gifted children *didn't* intend to
ever be doing that, and often end up taking the gifted child out of school
because the school would not or could not meet the child's academic needs.
Often, the child is removed from school in a crisis situation, and the
family hasn't had the years and years to plan for homeschooling that a
family who intended to homeschool from the beginning has had.
This necessitates rapid educational planning (sometimes under very difficult
circumstances because of what the school situation has been) and major
lifestyle adjustments for the family, without any time to really plan for
it, the way a family who decided to homeschool from the beginning, or even
who just decided to homeschool as another option, would have.
Although homeschooling is usually an excellent option for gifted kids (and
there are good reasons for that -- if you look at what the research
literature shows is effective in educating gifted children, and you look at
the major approaches to homeschooling today, you'll see there's a *lot* of
overlap!), the vast majority of parents who end up taking a gifted child out
of school to homeschool them did *not* plan to do that with their lives.
Instead, they most often planned to be able to send the child to school,
and trusted that the school system would provide an appropriate education
for them (with or without gifted programming services at the school). When
this ends up not being the case, the child's response may range from
learning how to "fit in" and hide his or her abilities, all the way to a
more extreme response that involves depression, totally shutting down
academically, or anger. Parents usually try many times to get the school to
provide appropriate services before they end up removing a gifted child from
school to homeschool (in fact, often parents wait far too long before
deciding to homeschool).
25 years ago, when homeschooling was a tiny movement and not a huge one,
these parents were far more likely to be extremely politically active
(forming active TAG advocacy organizations, running for school board
themselves, working with state legislators on bills, even using legal
action) in order to try to remedy the situation, both for their own gifted
children and for all the gifted children in their school district or state.
But 25 years of this sort of advocacy hasn't been very effective -- this
country is *still* in the dark ages (and getting worse, as NCLB only focuses
on underachieving students. . .) when it comes to educating gifted children.
What has happened in the last 8 years or so is that parents of gifted
children have been deciding to homeschool in droves, rather than focus on
school advocacy.
And like I said, most families of gifted children, even now that
homeschooling is so much more common and so much more well-accepted,
*didn't* plan on homeschooling from the outset, and, in fact, may have come
to homeschooling initially only as a desperation measure. (I've often
commented that it is *much* easier for me to do a consult with a family of
gifted children who has always planned to homeschool, than with one who has
come to homeschooling because there were no other reasonable options, and
perhaps because there is a crisis).
Families tend to do what is necessary for their children, even if it
involves financial sacrifices they didn't intend to make.
But it doesn't make it easier.
And I personally think that it shouldn't let the schools off the hook (even
though, in actuality, it has that effect). Because for every family that is
able to adjust their lifestyles to accommodate homeschooling, there are many
more who cannot. These families may live in poverty, in single-parent
families, and the like. Those gifted children are generally stuck in
unresponsive school systems, without any state or federal laws to protect
their right to a free and appropriate public education. Such school systems
often also have a definite anti-intellectual bias. And we, as a nation, are
squandering both the lives and the talents of these children whose parents
cannot, for some reason, choose to homeschool them.
Hi Karl
You wrote:
>
> How do parents deal with the career tradeoffs involved in homeschooling
> gifted children?
>
and
> I'd appreciate hearing from you, Kathi, or from any onlooker to
> this discussion, about helpful ways for families to balance competing
claims
> on the parents' time while the kids are growing up.
>
This is exactly the question that is exercising the minds of my husband and
myself as we consider homeschooling our two children (girl 5 yo HG with mild
LD/asynchrony and boy 8 yo HG?+ and severe LDs).
It was not all that long after I gave birth that I realised I wasn't going
to be going back to work full time as planned :-). We have both worked part
time (3 and 4 days respectively) to enable us to spend time with our kids. I
personally have found it very difficult to mentally manage the compromise of
my professional goals that this has entailed, although this has improved
somewhat with time! I was brought up by a mother who was a full time parent
and resented the sacrifice of her career a lot - this was a big influence
for me.....
For reasons related to schooling that I won't bother going into , we may
choose to homeschool our kids starting next year. So people's strategies
around possibly working and homeschooling, or insights into coping with the
further eroding of my career goals :-) would be great!
It does seem to me that it really clarifies the goals of homeschooling, ie
if our kids go onto be parents they need to develop values that are not all
about high academic and then professional (or publicly recognisable)
achievement you know?
Thanks
Sue
Kathi Kearney wrote:
>Those who fully buy in to the "unschooling" philosophy would say that when a
>child needs to cover the basics, they will learn it themselves, and usually
>quickly.
>
I think maybe I didn't ask my question very well -- (gee, imagine that
:-) ) I am very well aware of the unschooling philosophy. That's mostly
what we do -- but not entirely, as I do occasionally try to steer dd
into something that I think she will a) enjoy if she is willing to give
it a chance; b) needs to know for something else that interests her; or
c) thinks she already knows but is quite mistaken (dd thinks she knows
everything about any subject, so long as she knows a little bit -- we're
still working on the concept of not knowing what it is you don't know,
and so on). I'm usually right about what will interest her, but getting
her to *try* new topics is tough.
The thing is that there are times when there is something that starts to
interest her or that I think will interest her and she just has these
blocks up and won't even try, usually she's afraid of failing, or she is
so emotionally sensitive that she is afraid of unknown subjects, no
matter how hard or easy these are. She is also very slow to warm up --
to anything. Oh, and she *hates* anything that looks like academica,
such as workbooks and textbooks, so my approach is usually stealth, and
non-standard.
Where that leaves us is that if I can get her past these hurdles, she
usually does great. Getting her to stretch herself past these hurdles is
a big obstacle, but it's something I think needs to happen because she
clearly isn't getting enough intellectual challenge as things are
planned these days. What worked for us last year for activities isn't
sufficient for this year. I need to find new ways to get her involved in
stuff that she is interested in, but then I have to find something that
either I can do with her without her little brother being a distraction
(no, I can't just give him his own 'work') or I have to find a class or
activity that is to her taste and will allow her (as a 7yo) to
participate AND will also work with us afa her vision issues, CAPD, and
her life threatening food allergies...
So I think another way to restate my question is to say that I have to
balance her need for intellectual challenge with my inability to be
creative enough to keep finding new things and new ways to present them
to her in a way that she will deign to consider exploring without any of
us melting down :-)
(Is that any better?)
Corin
>> the vast majority of parents who end up taking a gifted child out of
school to homeschool them
>>did *not* plan to do that with their lives.
Raising my hand and waving - this was ME!! We bought a house in a
great school system, started our family and had visions of sending the
kids off on the bus, volunteering in the PTA, making cookies for class
parties and . . well you all get the picture<g>!
The first hint that all was not going as planned was when Miss
Hyperschool put herself in Kg at 4 (if I had only known then what I know
now. . . .). It was sometime the following Spring when the Private Kg
teacher indicated that they were recommending she transfer to 1st grade
in the fall and I realized I'd missed the first day of school.
I had an established career in high-tech, worked from home 3 or 4 days a
week, volunteered in the classroom and then was laid off three summers
ago. I was in the midst of a full-scale job search when C publicly
checked out of school four weeks later. My life has not been the same.
LOL! I wouldn't trade it for the world, but I could use some extra
sleep, a part-time work from home job, someone to answer her endless 5
am philosophical questions and/or a chauffeur for dance classes.
I don't miss the pressure of sales in a high-tech company but I do miss
the account challenges and the exposure to new technologies. While I
never intended to homeschool, I can see homeschooling was meant to be a
part of my journey and I feel very blessed to have all this time with
the girls. I'm sure my career will never be the same but I'm enjoying
the moment. Lance and I are having a great time exploring new things
with the girls in our time together and I will explore other career
options as they transition to college in the years ahead.
Tonya
Hi
all
Firstly
thank you Kathi for this conference. I have been searching for
information on gifted/homeschooling and find the information rather limited.
I
have just started homeschooling our 2 girls (6 & 11) this year - which
coincided with a move to a very small town in the middle of the Northern Territory (Australia). The
homeschooling decision was a result of 5 yrs of really bad school experiences
for my eldest daughter. Eldest has tested in the eg/pg range.
Youngest yet to be tested.
We
love homeschooling - most days. The kids are so much more relaxed and
generally things are going along nicely. But....
Sarah
said
"I find the mental/intellectual restlessness that follows me
everywhere to be quite maddening."
I
have to agree. I haven't quite convinced myself that what I am doing
should be enough! Being a small town my chances of mental stimulation are
limited at best - I found Rotary and that has helped a bit. I have just
started work in a casual position about 20 hrs a week - and I'm loving
it. (I do have this awful habit of being like the kids and getting bored
with things once I've mastered it - so not sure how long I'll be loving it)
I'm
finding though that everything else - like kids schooling, after
school activities, their social life etc - is disrupted because I'm
working.
I
am also studying for my Masters externally - but it still isn't enough. I
read little gems that say that there is plenty of time for my career later -
and I'm fine with that. But what do I do to keep myself stimulated in the
meantime??
Will
be following the discussion with interest.
I'd also be interested in hearing how people do their portfolios for state
education departments. Waiting for the high school stuff - especially
primary school kids doing high school work.
Thanks
again Kathi
Janelle
Sheila wrote:
>I can ditto Corin's post and add my own question...
>
And I'll ditto yours, too.
>Yes, when and how do you fit
>it all in? I am so tired!
>
How does one fit it all in? My kids love going to OT and VT, but I'm not
about to say, "OK, that's enough activities, let's go have some down
time now" when there are non-required things they want to do, as well.
Finding the balance between what you have to do (OT, VT, doctors) and
what you want to do (skating, Girl Scouts, etc) is really hard,
especially with two kids who have only somewhat similar needs but
different interests. And my DH and I need downtime, too. Has anyone yet
invented the extra-length day, or night? Or have I gone completely
off-topic? (sorry, if I have!)
Corin
From: "Karl M. Bunday"
> How do parents deal with the career tradeoffs involved in homeschooling
> gifted children?
Even before we decided to homeschool, I worked part-time (2/3 time, for the most
part) with 2 days/week at the office and the rest at home. My son's father
(we're separated) is self-employed and took care of our son two
afternoons/evenings per week while I was at work. I loved working part-time and
couldn't imagine having the energy to work full-time while parenting.
When we first started homeschooling, we hired someone to be with our son the one
morning/week I had to be in the office and arranged our schedules so that one
or the other of us could be with him the rest of the time while I worked 1/2
time. These days, I work from home and arrange my consulting time around our
child care schedule. Of course, it helps that my son is now old enough that he
can work or play on his own if I need to do a phone consult.
I must say that I've gotten so used to the joys of working part-time that I'm
not sure I can envision myself ever working full-time again!
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
How do
> you get them comfortable making mistakes when they
> melt down at the
> least frustration, yet have the pg IQ?
Hi Sheila:
You know, we are in a similar situation. FWIW, I
tried all the encouragement, coaching, etc. The only
thing that actually works -- his own internal
motivation. I had to wait for him to find his own
'power of positive thinking', as much as it drives me
batty. And -- it has not yet spilled over into all
realms.
I hope you can get some rest tonight!
SarahG
Hi List Members - now 176 members:)
I posted Kathi's Opening Statement on the Website, so any members who did not
receive this first message may review the schedule for the next two days.
Please go to http://www.neiu.edu/~ourgift
Apologies for the silence on the list for a period of time today - the list
was so active that it reached a default setting of the allowed posts in one
day's time.
Another BIG welcome to everyone posting and those who are lurking:)
Kathi - Thanks so much for being our guest expert on this topic -
Homeschooling the Gifted.
Continue with the wonderful posts!!!!
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
Relieved to be back at a computer
Sorry that I'm posting this question early but my power will be out all day
tomorrow!
I'd like feedback on the following areas:
1. Should I be documenting (ala _ And What About College?_) any and all
high school level work even if my pg son is only 9? We're independent,
relaxed schoolers and I haven't a clue as to what his goals are (except to
be a concert master, a chess master, and to study theology).
2. What if he's proficient at higher level concepts but still struggles
with "arithmetic"? Can I consider him proficient or do I need to keep
reviewing?
We went through _The Algebra Survival Guide_ last year but I never tested
him. He enjoyed and did reasonably well. This year, he chose to go through
an 8th grade textbook but he has difficulties with long arithmetic (You
know, long division with decimals to the 5th place, etc.) . (And he only
does about 4 problems per page) Will he ever be proficient without a
calculator??? He should be done with this text by November and I wanted to
jump him into Jacob's "Algebra" or _Discovering Geometry: An Inductive
Approach_ if he's willing.
He did all his math mentally, left to right until I showed him how schools
do it. He uses techniques from the "Mega Math" books and videos and those
are helpful. The thing is, he loves math and physics and reads math,
physics, and chess books for pleasure but arithmetic remains his struggle.
Remind me, please, what to do with this kind of learner! (He get "brain
glitches", too, but that's another story!)
Becca O.
>1. Should I be documenting (ala _ And What About College?_) any and all
>high school level work even if my pg son is only 9? We're independent,
I say yes, because that is what I've done. As soon as he starts working at
secondary level (7th grade and above) in a subject, I start keeping a
transcript report (matrix based grading) and a book list for that subject.
>2. What if he's proficient at higher level concepts but still struggles
>with "arithmetic"? Can I consider him proficient or do I need to keep
It's funny you mention that because I was just asking those same questions a
few months ago myself. What I was told turned out to be true in our case, so
perhaps it will be in yours. I was told that some PG/EG children struggle
with higher arithmetic because of the way their brains work, and that they
do just fine if you skip the middle school math and move on to high school
level, pre-algebra and above. We tried it and low and behold, it worked! DS
is thriving with pre-algebra and once more enjoying math, something that
wasn't happening with arithmetic studies.
And I'll be brutally honest here - how many people can do long division out
to even two or three places in their heads? I can, but I'm a math freak :)
Once I saw the successes coming from higher level math, I changed the
arithmetic goals to real-world ones, like being able to calculate a decent
tip in a restaurant - a skill far too few people have these days :) Or
knowing how much change you are supposed to get back without having to use
the cash register to help you - that's a skill they should teach when
training the poor cashier, if they don't know how already, IMHO.
Annette
Hello everybody,
I am excited to have found this online conference. I live with ds who is
turning 4 in December. We live in an extremely tiny rural town in Victoria,
Australia and everybody in the town views us as somewhat strange...they find
it strange that ds is reading when they come across him undertaking that
activity in the park....they find it strange that he is not racing around
like a mad thing (such as most of the other children in town)...they find it
strange that I DONT send him to the preschool in town...and they look askew
when I say I am not planning on sending him to the school either....
Needless to say there is not much support around here for us, but moving is
also out of the question. People ask the seemingly endless question
regarding socialisation which I am sick of answering, they can not cope with
a 3 year old who is reading and they seem to think that I am pushing him and
making him do a lot of 'work'. I have learnt to simply neglect to mention
to people that he has started writing single letters....I hate to think what
the reaction would be.
I do not really want to label him as 'gifted' but know that he is doing
things that many children his age do not.
Anyway, I am looking forward to the discussion and learning a lot.
warmly
Jane
She really gets bored
easily and when bored gravitates towards computer games, I really don¹t think
they are good for her right now. <<<<<
>>Rosemarie,
could you try some taped books from the library? After all, this is a
short-term thing, not a long-term solution -- and it would be MUCH better than
using her eyes for computer games when they are tired of reading!!!!!
Thanks Kathi, Does
anybody know if the library has books on tape with lessons or real learning
subjects. She reads way to much on her own and I don’t think that she will want
to stop that but I’d just like to give her a way to access the other types of
materials that she isn’t reading on her own for pleasure. I bought her a series
of tapes called “Word smart” and she loves it so far so I’ll try checking with
the librarian to see what else they have.
>>It's a good thing
she isn't in a regular school for 8 hours a day right now, the reading/near
vision activities would be WAY too much!
Boy don’t I know it!
Thanks again,
Rosemarie
Corin wrote:
> How does one fit it all in? My kids love going to OT and VT, but I'm not
> about to say, "OK, that's enough activities, let's go have some down
> time now" when there are non-required things they want to do, as well.
> Finding the balance between what you have to do (OT, VT, doctors) and
> what you want to do (skating, Girl Scouts, etc) is really hard,
> especially with two kids who have only somewhat similar needs but
> different interests. And my DH and I need downtime, too. Has anyone yet
> invented the extra-length day, or night? Or have I gone completely
> off-topic? (sorry, if I have!)>>>>>
This is not a situation unique to homeschooled children.
In fact, conventionally schooled children these days may have even MORE of
this problem, since they have to deal with a 7- or 8-hour school day with
homework on TOP of that, plus a bus ride, eating up their time. Most kids
today are WAY overscheduled (even homeschooled kids, to some extent) and
have WAY less time for unstructured play that is essential to the
development of creativity and interpersonal relationships. When I worked at
a leading preschool in New York City, I was shocked to see little three- and
four-year-olds with weekly schedules that would rival mine as a graduate
student! Every minute, practically, was scheduled -- including "play dates",
music classes, gymnastics, you name it.
Now, some exploration of various kinds of activities in structured settings
for homeschoolers can be really good for social connections and for an
introduction to areas of interest and skill the child might find it hard to
be exposed to at home. But in general, some downtime (even some time when
the child is actually bored!) can be a good thing, as it helps to develop
initiative and creativity.
I tend to be more on the side of more, rather than less, unstructured time
for kids (as does my principal in the school where I work). Now, granted,
some kids really like a very full schedule. But if it comes to the point
where the schedule is too hard on *other* people (like Mom, the chauffeur)
or the child seems stressed, or the child isn't doing a lot of creative work
on their own, it could be time to re-assess.
For a really nice look at what kids' play *can* look like if it's not
overwhelmed by planned activities, try reading "Child's Play" by Nancy
Wallace (same homeschooling mom who wrote "Better than School", although
this book is not as well-known as her first one).
It's been my experience that gifted children who are given a lot of
unstructured time -- especially homeschooled gifted children, as they seem
to just *have* more time anyway, compared to conventionally schooled
children -- do some very creative things with that time which can even spill
over into their adult lives. For instance, one homeschooled child I know
spent 4 and 5 hours every day, walking in the woods, observing and drawing
birds. (His mother once asked me if there was anything "wrong" with that; I
told her no, it was reasonably productive, and probably little John James
Audubon's mother asked the same question!) He later went on to research on
site the birds of the Yucatan, and wrote a field guide to the birds of the
Yucatan in English, Spanish, and Mayan. Several "unschooled" children I know
who were writing prodigies played with dolls, lego people, and Star Wars
characters for HOURS at a time every day. But they didn't play with these
toys like most kids play with them. They created ongoing "scenes" (as one
boy called them) that went on for days and weeks at a time, in an ongoing
plot. Now, that's a very healthy activity for plot development practice for
a future writer -- though it wasn't viewed as that by the parents at the
time. It was viewed as just unstructured play that sometimes went on too
long to the exclusion of other things (like math. . .)
So I guess my advice is, don't worry about "fitting it all in." Pick out the
most important activities (OT and VT obviously fit in that category, as they
are necessary), some fun organized activities, and then a healthy amount of
unstructured time too.
And moms and dads who are running ragged from the chauffeuring schedule
might need to take another look at the activity and driving schedules. Your
sanity is important too!
Janelle wrote:
<<<< I haven't quite convinced myself that what I am doing
should be enough! >>>>>
I don't know a teacher or a
parent of a gifted child alive who EVER feels like they are doing
"enough"!!! That's because these kids can eat up curriculum so fast,
and want to explore things in such depth, and have such a curiosity and often
such a *drive* to learn, that you could *never* do "enough" (Tonya,
time for you to chime in here about Ms. Hyperschooling!)
I think it helps, if you are homeschooling, to think of yourself in the way a
good gifted ed. teacher thinks of himself or herself, and that is as a
facilitator -- since you are never going to be interested in everything your
child is interested in, and you are never going to know more about every topic
your child wants to study than he or she eventually will know (yes, THIS
year, not 12 years from now in graduate school!) Last year, for instance, in
the 6th grade school where I was teaching, I had gifted kids doing major
research projects on topics as diverse as cloning, the structure of the Battle
of Gettysburg, and the life of Einstein. Now, I am an expert in NONE of those
three things! In fact, I knew almost nothing about each topic. But what I had
to do was just faciliatate their research. . .those three kids now know *far*
more about those topics than I do.
*Whatever* you do, it is *never* going to seem like "enough" for a
motivated gifted child. . .and part of the reason for that is that when they
are truly engaged in a topic, there is no stopping them. (Sometimes, however,
something is "enough" for *you*, as the parent, as it was for
the mom in a homeschooling family I worked with many years ago in Vermont. .
.this mom had put up with experiments on wild teas that were presented to each
guest who came to the house, ferrets, a growing insect collection, numerous
messy art projects, a pet tarantula ("because it would be fun to
observe it"), and the like. She absolutely drew the line at teaching high
school chemistry at home -- "I will NOT have B. doing chemistry in this
kitchen, I KNOW what will happen, and I won't HAVE a kitchen OR a house if
something blows up!" and packed her very inquisitive son off to the
community college for chemistry class!)
Tonya wrote:
> I'm sure my career will never be the same but I'm enjoying
> the moment. Lance and I are having a great time exploring new things
> with the girls in our time together and I will explore other career
> options as they transition to college in the years ahead.>>>>
And for gifted kids, especially those who are homeschooling, the transition
to college can come earlier than originally expected. . .
Becca, who is about to be without power! asked:
> 1. Should I be documenting (ala _ And What About College?_) any and all
> high school level work even if my pg son is only 9? We're independent,
> relaxed schoolers and I haven't a clue as to what his goals are (except to
> be a concert master, a chess master, and to study theology).>>>>
The answer to this one is easy. Absolutely YES. You should start a high
school transcript for a homeschooled child WHENEVER that child begins
completing high school level work. (Once, when doing homeschool annual
assessments, I came across a 7-year-old who had completed Algebra I. . .we
started a high school transcript for him at that point).
The idea is that you want to document all high school work completed,
whenever it is completed.
There is a nice explanation of this in David and Laurie Callihan's book "The
Guidance Manual for the Christian Home School" (It's a great book. It does
have a Christian perspective; if you're not Christian, the book is still
worth reading, just ignore the religiously-oriented sections). The Callihans
had five kids, all very close in age, so they had five teens at once -- and
the teens were all gifted kids. Even though they don't use the "g word" in
their book, the entire book is a nice primer on how to homeschool gifted
kids at the high school level (even if they are not yet of high school age!)
Becca continued:
> 2. What if he's proficient at higher level concepts but still struggles
> with "arithmetic"? Can I consider him proficient or do I need to keep
> reviewing?>>>>
Well, it's always nice to know how to do long division and fractions in
"real life" as an adult. . .unless you are in a math/science field, there
is much more use to that kind of math than algebra. On the other hand, by
about sixth grade level these days, it's pretty much assumed that kids will
be using a calculator, since there is so much pre-algebra and algebra in
even upper-level elementary math programs these days (6th grade Everyday
Math program uses calculators a lot; by 7th grade, you MUST have a
scientific calculator to even do the homework, and by 8th grade you have to
have a graphing calculator).
I'm wondering if you might not separate the two skills. Let him go ahead in
the higher math, but also, perhaps, introduce a "consumer math" class at
some point? The "consumer math" class will cover all the arithmetic basics
and relate them to "real life".
Barbara wrote:
> I am a working single mom(50-60 hrs a week), even when I was married ,I was
> "in
> charge" of education. I am now attempting to homeschool my 5 yr old son using
> a bit of unschooling, tutoring and my attention after work. I was reviewing
> the
> time I have spent in the last few months doing "prep" work and gathering
> materials etc.There is more prep time than actual homeschooling time.I for
> one,
> am feeling the pressure and second Karl's request.Any tips, comments etc.?>>>>
Barbara, your situation might dictate the use of either a boxed curriculum
or curriculum materials that don't require much "gathering" to implement the
program.
You might try "Five in a Row" and "Beyond Five in a Row" which use
children's books and have activities related to the books in each of the
subject areas. Another option (but expensive) if you don't mind a Christian
curriculum is "KONOS in a Box" (as opposed to regular KONOS, where you have
to gather everything yourself! KIAB really does come with *everything* you
need to implement that unit.
He's really very small for a full-blown curriculum, but if you wanted such a
thing, the Calvert curriculum might work.
There is also a free online Charlotte Mason curriculum, but it does require
some "gathering" of materials -- especially at the younger ages (older kids'
stuff, a lot is online).
Leslie wrote:
> I was once told, on an e-mail list, that if I loved my daughter I would
> homeschool her. My opinion on this is that it is because I love my daughter
> that I do not homeschool her. I beleive that each of us has certain
> temperaments and abilities and that we structure our lives to accomodate
> those. >>>>>
Homeschooling is *definitely* not for everyone -- for all kinds of reasons!
And sometimes it can be right for a child and family at one point in the
child's and family's development, and not right at another point.
Leslie continued:
>
> That being said, both my husband and I have been very involved in J's
> schooling. This has required considerable time in advocacy and in providing
> some degree of education at home, if not strictly homeschooling. >>>>>
I have also talked with families who had been trying to do advocacy with
their child's school, and felt that they actually GAINED time when they
pulled the child out to homeschool, the advocacy work had been so
all-consuming, both in time and in emotional energy!
SarahG wrote:
> Of course, there also is all kinds of internal
> pressure (for me, at least) to do it all -- be the
> super homeschooling mom while running a successful
> (and lucrative) business from home; this is a real
> challenge with my kids!>>>>
Sarah reminds me of a wonderful resource if you can ever hear her speak.
Terri Camp has a wonderful workshop she does at homeschooling conferences
called "SuperMom" (she even wears a "supermom" cape!) where she talks about
this tendency to try to be the superhomeschooling mom, and how to combat it.
If you ever get to hear her she is very entertaining!
Anjali wrote:
> I am not sure about the other aspects of it though- like being in a social
> group etc. Our DD is an only child, and we are really not part of any
> religious group, so do not have recourse to groups like church,etc. that
> other homeschoolers seem to have.>>>>
25 years ago, this was a problem. Today it isn't, because, except in the
most remote rural areas, there are TONS of homeschool support groups and
homeschool activity groups all over the place. You just have to find them!
Every state in the U. S. has both a state Christian and a state secular
homeschool organization, and most of those state organizations keep a list
of local support groups (the lists for Maine, for instance, is VERY long).
Likewise, many states also have regional or statewide homeschool support
groups that sponsor regular activities and field trips. Everything from a
trip to the fire station for little ones to debate teams and homeschool
baseball and football teams for teens.
What it sounds like you need to do is to contact your state's secular
homeschool group and ask for a list of local support group contacts in your
area, as well as a list of any regional homeschoool support groups or
classes or activity groups.
If there isn't a group near you, try putting up an announcement of a meeting
for forming a new support and activity group in your local library
(homeschooling families almost always use the library!) and see who shows
up!
Anjali continued:
> I guess today's topics are really relevant to us- how do we know that this
> is the right decision to make for the long run?>>>
Well nobody can see into the future, so I guess nobody really knows for
sure. But I'm reminded of something John Holt (who founded "Growing Without
Schooling" and, I think, coined the term "unschooling") once said. He said
that homeschooling was "self-selecting and self-correcting." That no one
would try it if they weren't intending to really give it a good try, and if
it wasn't working, no one wants something that really isn't working going on
in their house 24 hours a day, and they will soon find another solution.
I'd also encourage you to reconsider that "long run" statement. You can try
homeschooling now, and if it works, great. If it doesn't work, you can
change at any time. The public school ALWAYS has to take your child back.
Also, with gifted kids, sometimes the "long run" isn't always so long, as
many parents of homeschooled gifted kids who ended up in college early can
attest!
I asked:
>>Secondly, what do you mean by "learning
differences"? A diagnosed learning disability? If so, he may qualify for
talking books for the blind or dyslexic -- and accommodations such as oral
tests in college. But you need the full documentation from testing to get
this.<<
And Lucy answered:
<<<<Yes, he has been diagnosed LD in math and written language with a
20 point spread between VIQ and PIQ. He excels in verbal skills but has
weaker visual spatial skills and slower processing speed. Homeschooling has
been great - I just wish I had more strategies for helping his gifts flourish
while trying to work around the deficits. Any book
recommendations?>>>>>>
Lucy, it sounds like he would qualify for talking books, perhaps. Your local public library should have the forms available.
Before college (or if you put him in a public high school, before high school) you'll probably need to get another evaluation done, with current testing, to continue to document the disability so that he can receive appropriate accommodations (e. g., tests given orally, more time for tests, etc.)
L. A. wrote:
> I work from home, strictly from my computer.
> Ironically, I'm finding that it's actually beneficial for my work, because I
> have to be more focused and structured to get everything done. I have set
> clear ground rules with K -- I must bill two hours a day, so part of the
> school time must be done without my intervention.>>>>
I know of other homeschool families who do "office-schooling." The child
actually has his or her own "office" at the parent's workplace (obviously
this happens in workplaces that the parent either owns himself or herself,
or that is *very* sympathetic to homeschooling!)
L. A. continued:
<<<<It also follows along
> with one of our biggest goals, which is to teach independence while
> learning -- not all assignments have to start with a detailed handout that
> contains the entire roadmap (like the ubiquetous school ditto).>>>>>
This brings up a VERY good point. This type of independence is very
important - both for the child's development and for the parent's sanity
(especially if you are homeschooling a large family!)
Those
gifted children are generally stuck in
unresponsive school systems, without any state or federal laws to protect
their right to a free and appropriate public education. Such school systems
often also have a definite anti-intellectual bias. And we, as a nation, are
squandering both the lives and the talents of these children whose parents
cannot, for some reason, choose to homeschool them.
Hi,
We're one of those families who came to homeschooling not from the beginning (1/2 way through 4th) It's working out really well, I'm fortunate to be able to work at home part time (sewing and handweaving). After dd (13) is in college, I'd like pursue something devoted to advocating for all gt kids and their families for all the reasons K said. Do you have any suggestions, Kathy, about the path to take (education) or choices of jobs/roles that would be most effective?
thank you,
Carmen
Annette gave a long description of her hyperschooling accelerated son then
added:
> The one thing I don't have time for in all this is to push him - I'm too
> busy hanging on for dear life and trying to enjoy the ride :)>>>>
LOL, Annette!!! This reminds me of a friend who was trying to get the school
to accommodate her exceptionally gifted kindergartener. When the principal
accused her of being a "pushy parent" she replied, "I am not a pushy parent,
but I have a pushy kid!!!"
Nice idea, to combine the classical ed. stuff with the Charlotte Mason stuff
when you needed to add a little bit to get him to "slow down" his pace!! :-)
For those who are not aware of it, there is a FREE Charlotte Mason
curriculum online (K-9) at: www.amblesideonline.org
Julie wrote:
<<<<The more expensive curricula just seemed (in my opinion) to stretch out
the same material into a year's worth of "busy work". With the spare time
gained by using a more "compact" curriculum my ds9 has more "free time" to
explore the topics that really interest him... and to read for pleasure.
>>>>
Really good point, Julie.
Rosemarie wrote:
<<<<Does anybody know if the library has books on tape with lessons
or real learning subjects. She reads way to much on her own and I don¹t think
that she will want to stop that but I¹d just like to give her a way to access
the other types of materials that she isn¹t reading on her own for pleasure. I
bought her a series of tapes called ³Word smart² and she loves it so far so
I¹ll try checking with the librarian to see what else they have.
>>>>
Many libraries have available the "Standard Deviants" videos or DVDs
in various subjects. Some have Teaching Company and Chalkdust tapes you can
borrow, too!!
Our state library has a program where they have taped a huge number of
educational programs (like Nova and others). Schools and homeschoolers can
check the catalog, select a video they want, send a blank videotape and
return postage, and the library will tape it for your use. You do have to agree
to destroy the tape, or tape over it, after one year.
Carmen wrote:
<<<<We're one of those families who came to homeschooling not from the
beginning (1/2 way through 4th) It's working out really well, I'm fortunate to
be able to work at home part time (sewing and handweaving). After dd (13)
is in college, I'd like pursue something devoted to advocating for all gt kids
and their families for all the reasons K said. Do you have any
suggestions, Kathy, about the path to take (education) or choices of jobs/roles
that would be most effective>>>>>
this is such a difficult
topic, Carmen. We've had 100 years+ of advocacy for gifted children in this
country, and we're really not much further ahead than we were in Leta
Hollingworth's time during the 1930s.
I personally think that this is like special education -- it's not going to
change until there is federal legislation that *requires* schools to identify
and provide appropriate education for gifted children.
Some states have a state mandate. Maine has had one since the mid-1980s. But
because to get the original legislation passed, we had to agree to a five-year
"phase in" plan, and in the middle of the "phase in" there
was an economic downturn and schools were given waivers, they have *continued*
(through good times and bad) to allow the schools to have waivers, and the
result is there are now fewer school districts in Maine that have gifted
programs than there were *before* the mandate was passed. The state *says* that
this is the last year of waivers, but I will believe that when I see it.
HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL:
My DD is 11 and taking 9th grade course work she simply has no interest in
detail work unless it is her agenda or she is stimulated by a subject. She
willingly accepts B and C's to avoid detailed work- for example for her
history she needed to draw a map, label it, and color it- she did a quick
sketch , threw on some labels and did not bother to color it- I think the
fact that she blows through details (she is a big picture type thinker) has
and will affect her mathmatical abilities- at this point her concept
ablities are very high and computation-poor because of silly errors- we are
trying to solve this by fully encouraging using a graphing calculator which
since she is in love with the computer appears to be helping...
So my question is should I be pressing her to provide the detail work?
Diane
Hello Kathi,
This is our first (and according to dh, only) year of home schooling. Ballerina
is 11, 6th grade+++. Our algebra teacher at the home school coop has
the children doing all their problem sets in a notebook, which will be “proof”,
and I will also have her take the end of year placement exam the school gives
to all 6th graders for jr. high.
The subject which I am worried
about getting credit for is High School Biology. We are doing free-lance, and
having a great time, but I wonder if I should enroll her in community college
to get documentation. Hate to spend the time and money when she is learning
perfectly well at home, and we are exploring a wide range of topics. Also, she
is almost definitely going to the local high school, and I am worried that if
we do this at home, the high school will get stinky about putting her in Honors
Chemistry.
All of the things we’re doing are
on high school level so far, with the exception of language arts and writing,
where we need to do some work. I am looking at spending two years at home,
doing 6th, 7th, 8th, in two years, and then
sending her into high school a year early. We can’t help but work at an
advanced level, which is, after all, why we brought her home this year. It’s
scary to contemplate how quickly she is getting even more out of sync with her
age group, since we have to put her back in.
Trina
Diane wrote:
>
> My DD is 11 and taking 9th grade course work she simply has no interest in
> detail work unless it is her agenda or she is stimulated by a subject. She
> willingly accepts B and C's to avoid detailed work- for example for her
> history she needed to draw a map, label it, and color it- she did a quick
> sketch , threw on some labels and did not bother to color it- I think the
> fact that she blows through details (she is a big picture type thinker) has
> and will affect her mathmatical abilities- at this point her concept
> ablities are very high and computation-poor because of silly errors- we are
> trying to solve this by fully encouraging using a graphing calculator which
> since she is in love with the computer appears to be helping...
> So my question is should I be pressing her to provide the detail work?>>>>
Well -- drawing, labeling, and coloring a map is a VERY different type of
"detail work" than mathematics detail work is.
Perhaps she learned the material for the geography assignment *without* the
coloring part???
I would say, pick your battles. Some learning requires detail work, but
often gifted kids can learn the material without having to do detail work
(like coloring).
Just like teachers are supposed to do for gifted kids in school, pre-test,
compact curriculum, and save "detail work" (which in your case, quite
frankly, sounds a bit like "busy work") for areas where it's really
necessary and/or meaningful.
You know, *I* chose to get B's and an occasional C in high school and
college to avoid certain picky, time-wasting, unnecessary busywork, myself.
It's actually not a bad skill to learn. The world does not come to an end if
you get a B instead of an A. Furthermore, some things are worth spending a
lot of time on details, and some things are not. The key is learning which
is which, when you have limited time.
Trina wrote:
<<<<<The subject which I am
worried about getting credit for is High School Biology. We are doing
free-lance, and having a great time, but I wonder if I should enroll her in
community college to get documentation. Hate to spend the time and money when
she is learning perfectly well at home, and we are exploring a wide range of
topics. Also, she is almost definitely going to the local high school, and I am
worried that if we do this at home, the high school will get stinky about
putting her in Honors Chemistry. >>>>>
Trina brings up
an important issue.
You *should* start a homeschool high school transcript as soon as the child is
completing high school level work. In most cases, you *do not* have to enroll
in a school or distance learning program or community college to somehow
"get documentation." Just keep good records of your own, and write up
an official-looking high school transcript that includes a course description
and full references of textbooks used, as well as course grades (there are many
available transcript models in books and online).
Keep in mind that in most states, it is always up to the receiving school
(whether public or private) to decide what courses it will give credit for
when transferring in. This is just as true for public school students who
transfer into a private school or an out-of-state public school as it is for
homeschoolers, by the way.
That said, you can and do often have to do some advocacy and negotiations in
order to make sure she's in the right courses when she transfers in to a high
school. Good documentation in the case of a transcript and portfolio will help
a lot with this.
Another thing you might consider would be having her take the SAT-II
Biology test in the spring. That would also "document" her learning.
Kathi wrote:
> Just like teachers are supposed to do for gifted kids in school, pre-test,
> compact curriculum, and save "detail work" (which in your case, quite
> frankly, sounds a bit like "busy work") for areas where it's really
> necessary and/or meaningful.
I'd love to hear more about what teachers are supposed to do for gifted kids
in school - high school especially. I am so inclined to major on the minor
issues instead of focusing on the big picture. Also, if you have resource
books to recommend on this topic, I'd be interested.
Lucy
Today's discussion will center on homeschooling high school courses -- which
for many families homeschooling gifted kids means starting LONG before the
children are of typical high school age!!
I'd like to share some resources on this topic that I think are particularly
good. First of all, the books out there that I think are the best on
homeschooling high school (especially ones that are gifted-friendly. . .)
"The Guidance Manual for the Christian Home School" by David and Laurie
Callihan
"Creative Homeschooling for Gifted Children" by Lisa Rivero (Great Potential
Press) (a great book in general, has a good high school section too)
"Homeschoolers' College Admissions Handbook" by Cafi Cohen (Prima
Publishing)
"Homeschooling the Teen Years" by Cafi Cohen (Prima Publishing)
And, for a different perspective on it all, anything by Grace Llewellyn.
Unschoolers and would-be unschoolers will particularly like her "Teenage
Liberation Handbook".
There is also a not-to-be-missed FREE online book, with an unwieldy and not
too helpful title, that is like having your own personal guidance counselor
in your back pocket -- and one who understands gifted issues! This is a
monograph put together by the National Research Center on Gifted & Talented
at the U. of CT at Storrs:
"Helping Gifted Children and Their Families Prepare for College: A Handbook
Designed to Assist Economically Disadvantaged and First-Generation College
Attendees (RM93201) by Avis L. Wright & Paula Olszewski-Kubilius (1993)",
available online in either MSWord or .pdf format at:
http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/nrconlin.html
(scroll to bottom of list to find it)
I will continue to try to answer a few posts covering yesterday's topic,
since we had a problem getting those posts through, but would like to
encourage *new* posts today to focus on homeschooling high school level!
I am homeschooling my 8th grader this year hoping to rescue him from the
"drudgery" of traditional curriculum he has "endured" at school. The thing
that has shocked me is that at home he only wants to do the traditional
curriculum (albeit 12th grade level)! He is stonewalling any of the "gifted"
or open ended types of material (such as Duke LOYO, Cornerstone's Starting
Points and Progeny Press Lit study guides) I thought he would embrace. I am
afraid I waited too late and that he is already "turned off" to higher level
thinking. Have others of you seen this happen and can it be reversed? Thanks
in advance.
Kay
Lucy wrote:
> I'd love to hear more about what teachers are supposed to do for gifted kids
> in school - high school especially. I am so inclined to major on the minor
> issues instead of focusing on the big picture. >>>>
What teachers are *supposed* to be doing for gifted kids at *all* levels
(but often don't) is compacting the curriculum, allowing them to do advanced
enrichment work at the higher cognitive levels, allowing them to work
through some subjects at their own pace, and allowing them to accelerate
where appropriate!!
Kay wrote:
> I am homeschooling my 8th grader this year hoping to rescue him from the
> "drudgery" of traditional curriculum he has "endured" at school. The thing
> that has shocked me is that at home he only wants to do the traditional
> curriculum (albeit 12th grade level)! He is stonewalling any of the "gifted"
> or open ended types of material (such as Duke LOYO, Cornerstone's Starting
> Points and Progeny Press Lit study guides) I thought he would embrace. I am
> afraid I waited too late and that he is already "turned off" to higher level
> thinking. Have others of you seen this happen and can it be reversed? Thanks
> in advance.>>>>
Maybe, Kay, he is doing what he is comfortable with in a new situation? The
fact that he's an 8th grader doing a 12th grade traditional curriculum is
very impressive!!!
And some gifted kids *do* prefer to do a regular curriculum at an
accelerated pace, rather than more gifted, higher-level thinking, enrichment
type activities. Probably the 12th grade curriculum is providing some higher
level thinking for him, just because it is four years advanced.
I wouldn't worry about it. Sounds like he is doing fine. What I'd suggest is
that instead of bombarding him with a full curriculum of "higher level"
stuff, you choose ONE (like perhaps a Progeny Press lit study guide) and
start with that. Eventually he might discover he likes it!
For a child who has only been in a traditional school setting with no gifted
program, it's a huge jump sometimes to leave what's comfortable completely
behind. At least his is doing 12th grade work, not 8th grade work!
>Today's discussion will center on homeschooling high school courses -
My 16 year old, who is my one child that has always been at age appropriate
grade level, decided she was homeschooling the rest of her high school
career. She has never been really engaged in school, just sort of did what
she had to in order to get a B or B+. She has two years of high school
completed.
After much discussion, she put together her "plan" for this year, because
we wanted to make sure that she wasn't just going to sit around and watch
TV all day (her favorite activity some days). It mostly involves a LOT of
reading and solitary activities, though we did convince her to take Spanish
at the community college. Her Dad agreed to take go over her plan with
her on a weekly basis and she is keeping a daily log of what she is doing.
My question -- other than providing her with a car (because we live 5 miles
from ANYTHING!) and a library card, which we have done, is there anything
else we should be doing?
-
Joni
"We will focus on such questions as how to know when a gifted child is ready
for high school level work..."
This is our big issue right now. Our DS, 8, learns from a variety of
materials and I have no idea what level to consider his work or what level
is appropriate to give him. He is considered EG/PG, but is of the goofy not
the studious variety. Very hands-on learner, bored with repetitive materials
so we mix it up a lot.
We do incorporate some basic college textbooks (introductory chemistry,
biology, physics -- he's a science and math kid). He doesn't read very much
in them independently due to the small print and some visual tracking issues
(which are improving), but seems to comprehend the material thoroughly. He
pushed for Algebra last year at 7, but we have just started into it in a
serious way this year. He has also dabbled in what was labelled high school
level geometry (proofs and such), but not in a sustained effort. He is also
very interested in particle physics, but I don't know what level to consider
that.
Thanks! Trish
Tracy wrote:
> I will have to look up that story ("Bartleby the Scrivener") -- it does> sound like that!
>
Hi Tracy (in Kansas),
I'm a day late with checking my emails. As my son would say: "I feel your
pain". That Bartleby that Kathi referred to - really hit the nail on the
head. My son is nearly 11. So far we've tried three primary schools, one
high school and homeschooling on two occasions. Nothing works. He sounds
just like your son - he just doesn't get engaged. Nevertheless, after a
year's break at home (he loves it; I'm a wreck) he's about to try another
high school next year .........wish me luck!
Regards,
Suzanne
Do something meaningful with your life -
so it will never be wasted.
Register as an organ donor today -
and tell your family.
Sarah said:
<More than the opportunity costs of not working
full-time, though, I find the mental/intellectual
restlessness that follows me everywhere to be quite
maddening. >
I feel this restlessness, too! But I'm probably worse. A lot of
homeschoolers really don't feel this way, I know, but I am homeschooling
this year only because of so many issues with school performance. I know
my son needs to be at home a lot of the time, but I'm still not happy about
it. I just want to be doing something else with my life. I went back to
university this year, after 10 years of waiting to do it, and my boy lasted
6 weeks at school. I had to withdraw to homeschool full-time, and whenever
I see one of my professor friends, I just want to be where they are. I
think homeschooling is a great option for some - just not for me!. And this
is the second year I've done it!
Oh well!
Suzanne
Hi Kathi:
I am beginning a transcript for Origami, per your
advice. I admit I feel strange doing this, but that
is my issue, not his.
Math is easy enough to document: I have a textbook
and a grade on an exam. What about the subjects that
are more difficult to document (at least, for us)? In
our case, Origami is largely self-guided in history
and science, and he already knows more about history
than I do. He is not using textbooks exclusively, he
is simply devouring everything he finds.
How do I describe this self-guided work? How do I
provide or make an evaluation of it, given that he is
just now seven years old and shares his knowledge by
lecturing rather than writing?
Given the wide variety of materials he uses, how do I
determine the actual level at which he is working? Is
this where the SAT subject tests become useful? Do I
simply try to keep a list of everything he reads? I
am reluctant to impose more structure on him right
now, since we are actually moving toward greater
Origami-independence, and everyone is happer that way.
I should add that *he* is fixated on early college, I
am just trying to cover the administrative aspects.
Thank you,
SarahG
This is exactly
what my daughter does with Barbies! So I should encourage this a little
more! No, she hasn't done musicals with them, but very elaborate
scenerios, which no one can interrupt.......when other kids come to play she is
intolerant to changing the plot at all even though the other kids don't know
what that plot is! I did mention to her, doing plays/musicals with them
this morning, after the suggestion, but she said she doesnt have enough hands,
she would need a thousand of them. I'll will continue to try.....
Stephanie
Vermont. . .this
mom had put up with experiments on wild teas that were presented to each guest
who came to the house, ferrets, a growing insect collection, numerous
messy art projects, a pet tarantula ("because it would be fun to observe
it"), and the like.
I love
this! My daughter came to me last week and says, I want to try to put a
hole in one egg, put a straw in it, then put another egg at the other end of
the straw then crack the bottom egg in the pan and see if the egg on the top
will go down the straw, through the bottom eggshell and into the
pan............ where does this stuff come from!!!!! :oP
Kathi
Kearney <kkearney@midcoast.com> wrote:
Janelle wrote:
<<<< I haven't quite convinced myself that what I am doing should
be enough! >>>>>
>More than the opportunity costs of not working
>full-time, though, I find the mental/intellectual
>restlessness that follows me everywhere to be quite
>maddening.
Maybe it is because my kids are in high school, but I love the
mental/intellectual freedom for ME that comes from homeschooling them. I
can explore things that I always wondered about without have so many other
demands on my time.
Since I didn't start homeschooling until my youngest was 11 and had always
been a stay-at-home (or live in the car <grin>) Mom, at first, it was
constricting -- more so because my son has continued to attend public
school on a part-time basis and I'm his chauffeur. But I'm learning to
make it fun for me too!
-
- Joni
Yes, I am hoping this will happen! They are -- slowly
-- grasping the idea that I have a life of my own,
too.
SarahG
Kathi Kearney wrote:
>Corin wrote:
>
>
>
>>How does one fit it all in? My kids love going to OT and VT, but I'm not
>>about to say, "OK, that's enough activities, let's go have some down
>>time now" when there are non-required things they want to do, as well.
>>Finding the balance between what you have to do (OT, VT, doctors) and
>>what you want to do (skating, Girl Scouts, etc) is really hard,
>>especially with two kids who have only somewhat similar needs but
>>different interests. And my DH and I need downtime, too. Has anyone yet
>>invented the extra-length day, or night? Or have I gone completely
>>off-topic? (sorry, if I have!)>>>>>
>>
>>
>
>So I guess my advice is, don't worry about "fitting it all in." Pick out the
>most important activities (OT and VT obviously fit in that category, as they
>are necessary), some fun organized activities, and then a healthy amount of
>unstructured time too.
>
Yeah, but that's the problem -- all of those things you mention don't
fit into a day on a normal space/time continuum, unless we don't sleep
:-) Even for one child, it would be difficult, but what if you have two
(or more, as some of us probably do), and one needs activities and the
other needs downtime, and there's only one of me and I can't be in two
places at one time? I can't work my day around my child's needs, because
I have two children and their needs conflict. Actually, while I
appreciate the reading suggestions, I have already read a lot of the
literature, and I'd say that there really is a hole on this topic, to
wit: homeschooling *more than one* gifted child at a time. I can think
of an outline for a book right off the top of my head...
I think there really is no answer to my immediate situation except to
just keep doing the best that I can to balance, and look forward to when
they are a bit older than 7yo and 4yo and hopefully things will get easier.
Thanks,
Corin
I just wanted to chime in here with something I have
heard about on one of the homeschooling lists I am on.
There are some "umbrella schools" which will assist
you with record keeping & transcript preparation, even
if you do not enroll in any courses they offer. From
what I understand, you just provide them with a
description of what you are doing, & they translate it
into a transcript, complete with credit hours in
Carngie units.
http://www.charitychristianacademy.org/chess/index.htm
is the URL for the one I have heard mentioned the
most, but I'm sure a search would uncover others. My
ds is not at the highschool level yet, so I can't give
any personal recommendation, but it might be worth
checking out, especially for any of you that, like me,
have to work full-time & still are trying to hs & give
your kids your best. I've found that my time is worth
more to me (& DS) that my money, so paying for
something that I could do myself is still worth it in
the long run.
-Teresa
--- Kathi Kearney wrote:
> You *should* start a homeschool high school
> transcript as soon as the child
> is completing high school level work. In most cases,
> you *do not* have to
> enroll in a school or distance learning program or
> community college to
> somehow "get documentation." Just keep good records
> of your own, and write
> up an official-looking high school transcript that
> includes a course
> description and full references of textbooks used,
> as well as course grades
> (there are many available transcript models in books
> and online).
Sarah
Just wanted to mention -- for my oldest son (now a sophomore in college),
I didn't specify exactly certain "textbooks" or whatever on his transcript
-- I simply put what I felt would qualify as the course name and his grade
for it (according to me). Like his foreign language was that he studied
German under the tutelage of a German foreign exchange student for a year
-- no textbooks,etc -- a few worksheets, but mainly just one on one. So I
put on his transcript German (tutored) and the tutor told me what grade he
felt my son deserved.
The college barely glanced at the transcript -- they were more interested
in the SAT scores....
They like tests-- any kind of benchmark tests you have available to give
your child is probably something they will accept.
Tracy
> Hi Kathi:
>
> I am beginning a transcript for Origami, per your
> advice. I admit I feel strange doing this, but that
> is my issue, not his.
>
> Math is easy enough to document: I have a textbook
> and a grade on an exam. What about the subjects that
> are more difficult to document (at least, for us)? In
> our case, Origami is largely self-guided in history
> and science, and he already knows more about history
> than I do. He is not using textbooks exclusively, he
> is simply devouring everything he finds.
>
> How do I describe this self-guided work? How do I
> provide or make an evaluation of it, given that he is
> just now seven years old and shares his knowledge by
> lecturing rather than writing?
>
> Given the wide variety of materials he uses, how do I
> determine the actual level at which he is working? Is
> this where the SAT subject tests become useful? Do I
> simply try to keep a list of everything he reads? I
> am reluctant to impose more structure on him right
> now, since we are actually moving toward greater
> Origami-independence, and everyone is happer that way.
>
> I should add that *he* is fixated on early college, I
> am just trying to cover the administrative aspects.
>
> Thank you,
>
> SarahG
Corin wrote:
> So I guess my question is, as unschoolers, how do I make sure that my
> child actually covers the basics at some point, and how do I walk that
> line between giving them the challenges that they need without causing a
> meltdown because it's "too hard"?>>>>>
Then Kathy wrote:
Well, you'll know if it's "too hard" or "too-something-else" right away if
you are getting meltdowns, and at that point it may be wise to take a break
and change tactics.
____________
I realize, after reading this, that J only had "meltdowns" when the material
was too easy, even though she experienced it as "too hard." Her perception
was that she couldn't do the work so that it must be "too hard" for her. The
reality was that it was "too hard" to keep her mind to the work. When I
began to realize that, I would try presenting her with more advanced work in
the same subject area. Invariably, this solved the problem.
With a lot of experience behind me, I also realize that if she could do the
harder work, she probably knows the basics I was worrying about. Sometimes,
a really weird gap appears. Then it is obvious and the opportunity can be
seized to teach her through the gap, at that time.
Leslie
-
_____________________________________________________________________
> I realize, after reading this, that J only had "meltdowns" when the
> material
> was too easy, even though she experienced it as "too hard." Her
> perception
> was that she couldn't do the work so that it must be "too hard" for
> her. The
> reality was that it was "too hard" to keep her mind to the work. When
> I
> began to realize that, I would try presenting her with more advanced
> work in
> the same subject area. Invariably, this solved the problem.
>
> With a lot of experience behind me, I also realize that if she could
> do the
> harder work, she probably knows the basics I was worrying about.
> Sometimes,
> a really weird gap appears. Then it is obvious and the opportunity
> can be
> seized to teach her through the gap, at that time.
>
Leslie writes like she knows my situation. Same subject matter can
produce meltdowns hour to hour within the same day. My dd melts down
with easy stuff that she can't concentrate on or makes stupid mistakes
and has no patience to deal with repitition or things she understand
but is unable to do fluently. Something that she can't deal with
producing hysterics can be completed in under five minutes later -
sometimes more like two minutes. How do you deal with an AS pglet who
doesn't like change, doesn't know what studying is, and thinks
something that isn't instantly apparent is hard? I have two children,
and adjusting moment to moment when they aren't able to drive the bus
hsing is hard...Concentration is so poor without meds that they can't
pursue even things that they want to because their minds race. What do
you do? You can't dumb down the material too much? You can't push
ahead if they don't master other things.
Sheila
I'm sorry, and
don't meant to get off topic, but could someone please tell me what AS
is? I've seen it a couple times and don't understand what it is.
Thanks.
Stephanie
Sheila <nick3609304@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- "Kushner, Leslie" wrote:
>
> I realize, after reading this, that J only had "meltdowns" when
the
> material
> was too easy, even though she experienced it as "too hard." Her
> perception
> was that she couldn't do the work so that it must be "too hard"
for
> her. The
> reality was that it was "too hard" to keep her mind to the work.
When
> I
> began to realize that, I would try presenting her with more advanced
> work in
> the same subject area. Invariably, this solved the problem.
>
> With a lot of experience behind me, I also realize that if she could
> do the
> harder work, she probably knows the basics I was worrying about.
> Sometimes,
> a really weird gap appears. Then it is obvious and the opportunity
> can be
> seized to teach her through the gap, at that time.
>
Leslie writes like she knows my situation. Same subject matter can
produce meltdowns hour to hour within the same day. My dd melts down
with easy stuff that she can't concentrate on or makes stupid mistakes
and has no patience to deal with repitition or things she understand
but is unable to do fluently. Something that she can't deal with
producing hysterics can be completed in under five minutes later -
sometimes more like two minutes. How do you deal with an AS pglet who
doesn't like change, doesn't know what studying is, and thinks
something that isn't instantly apparent is hard? I have two children,
and adjusting moment to moment when they aren't able to drive the bus
hsing is hard...Concentration is so poor without meds that they can't
pursue even things that they want to because their minds race. What do
you do? You can't dumb down the material too much? You can't push
ahead if they don't master other things.
Sheila
Asperger syndrome
SarahG
Joni wrote:
>
> My 16 year old, who is my one child that has always been at age appropriate
> grade level, decided she was homeschooling the rest of her high school
> career. She has never been really engaged in school, just sort of did what
> she had to in order to get a B or B+. She has two years of high school
> completed.
>
> After much discussion, she put together her "plan" for this year, because
> we wanted to make sure that she wasn't just going to sit around and watch
> TV all day (her favorite activity some days). It mostly involves a LOT of
> reading and solitary activities, though we did convince her to take Spanish
> at the community college. Her Dad agreed to take go over her plan with
> her on a weekly basis and she is keeping a daily log of what she is doing.
>
> My question -- other than providing her with a car (because we live 5 miles
> from ANYTHING!) and a library card, which we have done, is there anything
> else we should be doing?>>>>>
Sounds like it's working ok Joni!!
You'll want to give her some guidance and support when she starts the
college looking and college admissions process, of course.
And if she wants to and has time, you could even consider some kind of a
mentorship/apprenticeship somewhere down the line in an area of interest --
this might make her more employable (for other than work-study wages) when
she goes to college. She really would have time to do both an excellent
academic program and a mentorship/internship/apprenticeship if she wanted
to.
Also keep in mind that some of the extracurricular programs available to
conventionally schooled kids are also available to homeschooled kids,
especially competitions and such. Some states also have special
extracurricular activities available on a statewide basis that are *only*
for homeschooled teens -- your state Christian or state secular homeschool
organization can fill you in on that (these events are usually announced in
their newsletters).
Trish wrote:
> "We will focus on such questions as how to know when a gifted child is ready
> for high school level work..."
>
> This is our big issue right now. Our DS, 8, learns from a variety of
> materials and I have no idea what level to consider his work or what level
> is appropriate to give him. He is considered EG/PG, but is of the goofy not
> the studious variety. Very hands-on learner, bored with repetitive materials
> so we mix it up a lot.
>
> We do incorporate some basic college textbooks (introductory chemistry,
> biology, physics -- he's a science and math kid). He doesn't read very much
> in them independently due to the small print and some visual tracking issues
> (which are improving), but seems to comprehend the material thoroughly. He
> pushed for Algebra last year at 7, but we have just started into it in a
> serious way this year. He has also dabbled in what was labelled high school
> level geometry (proofs and such), but not in a sustained effort. He is also
> very interested in particle physics, but I don't know what level to consider
> that.>>>>
The content here sounds like most of it is at the middle school to high
school level.
Stephanie wrote:
<<<<<This
is exactly what my daughter does with Barbies! So I should encourage this
a little more! No, she hasn't done musicals with them, but very elaborate
scenerios, which no one can interrupt.......when other kids come to play she is
intolerant to changing the plot at all even though the other kids don't know
what that plot is! I did mention to her, doing plays/musicals with them
this morning, after the suggestion, but she said she doesnt have enough hands,
she would need a thousand of them. I'll will continue to
try.....>>>>>
YES, continue to encourage it!!! It will help her to become a good writer. She
is using the Barbies in a very different way than most of her little friends
play with Barbies, which is why you are getting SUCH a reaction out of her
("intolerant" is the word you used. Find other toys to use when the
other children come over. Obviously, she is doing something very creative and
cognitively complex that she doesn't want interrupted. It would be like
Stephanie Tolan being told, when writing a young adult novel, to hand over her
manuscript when visitors come so they can play by "adding" to her
manuscript!!! She wouldn't feel very good about that, LOL!
Several "unschooled" children I
know
who were writing prodigies played with dolls, lego people, and Star
Wars
characters for HOURS at a time every day. But they didn't play with
these
toys like most kids play with them. They created ongoing
"scenes" (as
one
boy called them) that went on for days and weeks at a time, in an
ongoing
plot. Now, that's a very healthy activity for plot development practice
for
a future writer -- though it wasn't viewed as that by the parents at
the
time. It was viewed as just unstructured play that sometimes went on
too
long to the exclusion of other things (like math. . .)
Kathi
Kearney <kkearney@midcoast.com> wrote:
Corin wrote:
> How does one fit it all in? My kids love going to OT and VT, but I'm not
> about to say, "OK, that's enough activities, let's go have some down
> time now" when there are non-required things they want to do, as
well.
> Finding the balance between what you have to do (OT, VT, doctors) and
> what you want to do (skating, Girl Scouts, etc) is really hard,
> especially with two kids who have only somewhat similar needs but
> different interests. And my DH and I need downtime, too. Has anyone yet
> invented the extra-length day, or night? Or have I gone completely
> off-topic? (sorry, if I have!)>>>>>
This is not a situation unique to homeschooled children.
In fact, conventionally schooled children these days may have even MORE of
this problem, since they have to deal with a 7- or 8-hour school day with
homework on TOP of that, plus a bus ride, eating up their time. Most kids
today are WAY overscheduled (even homeschooled kids, to some extent) and
have WAY less time for unstructured play that is essential to the
development of creativity and interpersonal relationships. When I worked at
a leading preschool in New York City, I was shocked to see little three- and
four-year-olds with weekly schedules that would rival mine as a graduate
student! Every minute, practically, was scheduled -- including "play
dates",
music classes, gymnastics, you name it.
Now, some exploration of various kinds of activities in structured settings
for homeschoolers can be really good for social connections and for an
introduction to areas of interest and skill the child might find it hard to
be exposed to at home. But in general, some downtime (even some time when
the child is actually bored!) can be a good thing, as it helps to develop
initiative and creativity.
I tend to be more on the side of more, rather than less, unstructured time
for kids (as does my principal in the school where I work). Now, granted,
some kids really like a very full schedule. But if it comes to the point
where the schedule is too hard on *other* people (like Mom, the chauffeur)
or the child seems stressed, or the child isn't doing a lot of creative work
on their own, it could be time to re-assess.
For a really nice look at what kids' play *can* look like if it's not
overwhelmed by planned activities, try reading "Child's Play" by
Nancy
Wallace (same homeschooling mom who wrote "Better than School",
although
this book is not as well-known as her first one).
It's been my experience that gifted children who are given a lot of
unstructured time -- especially homeschooled gifted children, as they seem
to just *have* more time anyway, compared to conventionally schooled
children -- do some very creative things with that time which can even spill
over into their adult lives. For instance, one homeschooled child I know
spent 4 and 5 hours every day, walking in the woods, observing and drawing
birds. (His mother once asked me if there was anything "wrong" with
that; I
told her no, it was reasonably productive, and probably little John James
Audubon's mother asked the same question!) He later went on to research on
site the birds of the Yucatan, and wrote a field guide to the birds of
the
Yucatan in English, Spanish, and Mayan. Several
"unschooled" children I know
who were writing prodigies played with dolls, lego people, and Star Wars
characters for HOURS at a time every day. But they didn't play with these
toys like most kids play with them. They created ongoing "scenes" (as
one
boy called them) that went on for days and weeks at a time, in an ongoing
plot. Now, that's a very healthy activity for plot development practice for
a future writer -- though it wasn't viewed as that by the parents at the
time. It was viewed as just unstructured play that sometimes went on too
long to the exclusion of other things (like math. . .)
So I guess my advice is, don't worry about "fitting it all in." Pick
out the
most important activities (OT and VT obviously fit in that category, as they
are necessary), some fun organized activities, and then a healthy amount of
unstructured time too.
And moms and dads who are running ragged from the chauffeuring schedule
might need to take another look at the activity and driving schedules. Your
sanity is important too!
Joni wrote:
>
> Maybe it is because my kids are in high school, but I love the
> mental/intellectual freedom for ME that comes from homeschooling them. I
> can explore things that I always wondered about without have so many other
> demands on my time.
>
> Since I didn't start homeschooling until my youngest was 11 and had always
> been a stay-at-home (or live in the car <grin>) Mom, at first, it was
> constricting -- more so because my son has continued to attend public
> school on a part-time basis and I'm his chauffeur. But I'm learning to
> make it fun for me too!>>>>
This was one of the conclusions of the book "Kingdom of Children" by
Mitchell Stevens, a sociological study of two sets of homeschoolers in the
early 1990s.
The study explores both women's experiences as homeschooling moms (instead
of having careers at that point in their lives) and explores the sometimes
difficult politics between Christian homeschoolers and secular
homeschoolers.
Leslie wrote:
> I hope you didn't miss the point that even those of us who do not homeschool
> probably do some amount of homeschooling anyway. I can't recall an academic
> year in which J did not have to do some subject area at home because she
> could not be accomodated in her school. This year she is doing math at home,
> for example.>>>>
Yes, and this brings up another important issue -- that of "part-time"
homeschooling (either officially, or unofficially. . .)
One of the things I have seen more and more of over the years, that *is* a
solution but it's a bothersome trend that this even needs to be done, is
that of families deciding to part-time homeschool in one subject. Many
times, what this involves is the parent purchasing the EPGY tutorial, and
arranging for the child to do it either at home, or at school during math
time, in place of the regular math class.
This is often a good solution for the child. However, it is expensive for
the parent -- which makes it an impossible choice for many children who come
from lower income families.
The same issue surrounds CTY's summer and distance learning programs (or
even simply participation in the talent search programs without going to a
summer program), which is a wonderful program for families who can afford
it. And granted, there is some financial aid for really low income kids.
It's the lower to middle income kids, who *can't* afford the program without
financial aid but whose families earn too much to qualify for much aid, that
can't do it. Same for the distance learning programs that are available
through Johns Hopkins and Northwestern. . .they are a great alternative for
kids whose families can afford them, and often can be used in place of
regular courses at the school, as long as the parent pays for it themselves.
Parents who do not have the money for these courses, or who prefer to do the
tutoring themselves, either have their child do one or more subjects at home
(as Leslie describes above) or somehow are able to get the school to agree
to let the child work independently -- which often involves major and
ongoing advocacy efforts.
Hi Kathi!
Thanks for being guest expert on Homeschooling the Gifted.
Kathi Kearney wrote:
> Today's discussion will center on homeschooling high school courses -- which
> for many families homeschooling gifted kids means starting LONG before the
> children are of typical high school age!!
I remember when my daughter was 9 years old and had recently left school
to homeschool. You told me that I should look into putting together a
high school transcript for her. At the time I thought, "Oh no, that's a
way down the road!" Well, you were right! Within six months I realized
she was capable of doing high school level work in some subjects. The
following school year she took some high school sciences courses with
high school students, and the next year she started taking a few college
classes, and this year a few more.
So academics are going well, so well that I think it's causing a problem
with physical education.
Last year E started fencing lessons with a local homeschool group. She
did very well, joined the fencing club so that she could fence one or
two evenings a week, and continued with individual lessons weekly. Then
all of a sudden last week she told me she doesn't want to fence anymore.
She says she gets too depressed when she loses. REALLY UPSET and
DEPRESSED! This was news to me. She's usually sounded pretty upbeat when
she came home from fencing. Yes, she lost a bout now and then, but she
won a lot, too. She was doing very well and her fencing instructor had
hoped she would join their competitive team.
Recently, they have been having tournaments on Tuesday nights at the
fencing club where she fences kids on the competitive team. (boys &
girls) I think this is where the problem started. Some of the boys are
several years older, bigger, and nationally ranked.
I don't want to force her to do something she has decided she doesn't
want to do. But I also don't want her to think she has to be one of the
best at everything and win all the time. She says she doesn't need to be
the best, but she can't handle being one of the worst. She's really a
very good fencer, better than she is willing to admit, and losing once
in awhile is just part of the sport.
She's so used to competeing intellectually with people twice her age and
still scoring in the top of the class, that when she loses in a physical
competition to someone her age or only a few years older, she's
devastated. I think this might be a situation of emotional OE's getting
the best of her, but I don't know what to suggest to help her overcome
her negative feelings about herself when she loses to someone else.
Got any advice, Kathi? Anyone else BTDT? All suggestions would be
appreciated!
Thanks,
Mary C
Hi Tracy:
Thanks for your input. On one hand, I feel I could do
a pretty good job of making up a transcript in the way
you describe. I am conscientious about these details,
so I would not feel that I was somehow distorting or
inflating the facts.
OTOH, recently I tried to enroll Origami in a virtual
charter school. The "parent knows best" philosophy
was quickly replaced with agitation and disbelief when
I presented Origami's work (sputter, sputter, "But
this is high school work!"). I am assuming that we
will encounter more rejection and disbelief as we go,
and I would like to find the best way to prepare to
deal with that. Too many people already think I am
just making up all of this, KWIM?
SarahG
--- "Tracy M. Pribbenow" wrote:
> Sarah
>
> Just wanted to mention -- for my oldest son (now a
> sophomore in college),
> I didn't specify exactly certain "textbooks" or
> whatever on his transcript
> -- I simply put what I felt would qualify as the
> course name and his grade
> for it (according to me). Like his foreign language
> was that he studied
> German under the tutelage of a German foreign
> exchange student for a year
> -- no textbooks,etc -- a few worksheets, but mainly
> just one on one. So I
> put on his transcript German (tutored) and the tutor
> told me what grade he
> felt my son deserved.
>
> The college barely glanced at the transcript -- they
> were more interested
> in the SAT scores....
>
>
Got any advice, Kathi? Anyone else BTDT? All suggestions would be
appreciated!
Thanks,
Mary C
One
of the things I have seen more and more of over the years, that *is* a
solution but it's a bothersome trend that this even needs to be done, is
that of families deciding to part-time homeschool in one subject. Many
times, what this involves is the parent purchasing the EPGY tutorial, and
arranging for the child to do it either at home, or at school during math
time, in place of the regular math class.
That is exactly what we did last year. And yes...it was a
"partial" solution to our "problem!" On the plus
side....It very quickly rebooted my son's interest in math and it was the
highlight of his day. Again on the plus side....doing this and spending
this time with him and seeing his rapid and happy progress....really caused me
against my better judgement <G> to wonder if I should be homeschooling
for more than just this one subject. Our success with homeschooling
one subject, really was a steppingstone to our making the decision to
homeschool full-time this year. It was a great way to
"test" the waters.
This is often a good solution for the child. However, it is expensive for
the parent -- which makes it an impossible choice for many children who come
from lower income families.
Absolutely! The funny or not so funny thing is....when we proposed this to the school at our end of year meeting in May of 02....I said something like "We're lucky that we are able to do this for him. It is the right thing for him." What was going through my mind is exactly what you talk about. What about those families that cannot do this...and we're just 1 job loss away from being in that situation. Ironically in July of that year, my dh was laid off...and the EPGY coop that we belonged to was disbanded...thus necessitating our paying FULL price for the product at a time when we were paniced and could least afford it.
I found that if I show something in J's handwriting, or something she did
outside of *my* supervision, I am more likely to get a positive response.
Take me out of the mix (have J do the showing or let it be teacher to
teacher) and the probability of success is increased. Any documentation by
an independent party (school, college, testing agency, evaluator) is more
highly regarded than anything *I* can say.
Leslie
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Garrison [mailto:msgarrison@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 2:07 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: Re: high school/unschooling
Hi Tracy:
Thanks for your input. On one hand, I feel I could do
a pretty good job of making up a transcript in the way
you describe. I am conscientious about these details,
so I would not feel that I was somehow distorting or
inflating the facts.
OTOH, recently I tried to enroll Origami in a virtual
charter school. The "parent knows best" philosophy
was quickly replaced with agitation and disbelief when
I presented Origami's work (sputter, sputter, "But
this is high school work!"). I am assuming that we
will encounter more rejection and disbelief as we go,
and I would like to find the best way to prepare to
deal with that. Too many people already think I am
just making up all of this, KWIM?
SarahG
--- "Tracy M. Pribbenow" <pribb@iwichita.com> wrote:
> Sarah
>
> Just wanted to mention -- for my oldest son (now a
> sophomore in college),
> I didn't specify exactly certain "textbooks" or
> whatever on his transcript
> -- I simply put what I felt would qualify as the
> course name and his grade
> for it (according to me). Like his foreign language
> was that he studied
> German under the tutelage of a German foreign
> exchange student for a year
> -- no textbooks,etc -- a few worksheets, but mainly
> just one on one. So I
> put on his transcript German (tutored) and the tutor
> told me what grade he
> felt my son deserved.
>
> The college barely glanced at the transcript -- they
> were more interested
> in the SAT scores....
>
>
Kathi wrote:
> Uh, oh.
>
> This WAS a good post and a good point.
>
> AND, I never got this post AT ALL!!
>
> I wonder, Sally, are we missing posts again??? and why would some of us miss
> getting posts and others not???
Please know that I have reset the default setting twice today - very active
list:)
Also please know that for each message sent there are various reasons why
different
email addresses will receive them or not receive them for a while or not at all,
with all the various time zone issues from the US to Australia.
Some reasons:
People's mailboxes exceed their limit and I get every bounced message back:)
People's internet server provider decides to do maintenance or their server goes
down for various reasons creating a delay and sends a notice to me that it will
continue to send for the next 3 days
One ISP sends it out, but various other ISP receives, manages the delivery of
that message at different speeds not to mention the speed of ISP services -
phone line, cable,
T-1 lines, etc
The internet is a huge web and the paths each message(even one message can be
broken apart and
take different path to be reassembled) takes can be highly
entertaining to watch with the right software i.e. send a message to just
another
server in the same organization and it may go out of state, out of the nation
just to get back to that other server which is physically in the next building
over:)
There are others on this list who can explain the technical aspects of the
internet
and how it actually works.
I suppose having the environment of this online conference in a time frame
where many are expecting more of a chat room situation exposes such delays
when posts are just regular email posts and not instant messaging or a chat
room.
Maybe I just confused the issue more, but that is a somewhat short version of
why people get emails at different times.
Continue posting and I will carefully watch the list to reset when necessary.
Thanks,
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
Thank you Sally! (AKA, Techie Queen of Cyberspace!)
Just thought I'd let you know the website for a collection of free online
high school courses I've reviewed and compiled (since this compilation was
done for our state's Christian homeschool organization, they added the
"evolution alerts" on the biology courses. . .for those not bothered at all
by evolution, just ignore the little "alerts"!)
http://www.homeschoolersofmaine.org/high_school_&_beyond.htm#Free%20Online%2
0Courses
David and Laurie Callihan, co-authors of the book "The Guidance Manual for
the Christian Home School" also do a weekly column on homeschooling high
school students for crosswalk.com (a large Christian website).
It's worthwhile to go back and read some of those articles, as they do a
good job of discussing a number of important issues about homeschooling high
school (including recordkeeping and transcripts). Some of their articles
deal with social-emotional and spiritual issues, and are written from a
Christian perspective; many more of their articles simply deal with the nuts
and bolts of homeschooling high school (with no religious references).
You can access many of these articles in the crosswalk.com high school
archives:
http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/highschool.archive.html
I highly recommend the Callihans' articles and books. They are very helpful.
There is a wonderful website that provides just about every kind of
homeschool record-keeping form anyone could want, for FREE.
Go check out Donna Young's site:
http://www.donnayoung.org/
Another great website, with some full-length articles on homeschooling high
school:
http://www.homeschoolteenscollege.net/
Karl, can you update us on your homeschooling website, especially the status
of your "colleges that have accepted homeschoolers" section?
Hi list members,
Just a note of encouragement to all list members - Do you have a question to
ask a question(s) from our guest expert, Kathi Kearney, or a question from
another post that was posted from another list member, or do you have a
question that hasn't been asked and you are hoping someone else asks it because
you may be shy?
Remember, you can send an email to me personally - Sally_L@comcast.net and I
will post it anonymously on your behalf:))) It will remain confidential as you
prefer:)
Also, this conference is moving very quickly and I would like to encourage ALL
list members to post - through your questions others will also learn.
Happy posting!!!!
Sally_L
Conference coordinator
So many times a family who hadn't any idea or thoughts about homeschooling
along with families who would consider no other way can share many important
ideas and thoughts which may be helpful to your family, another family - not
only now if you are currently homeschooling, but in the near future or even
far off distance in various times of the educational years typically denoted
by the US K-12 education years/timeframe.
Hello from Australia,
For the people struggling with the Visual spatial environment. I have some
VS resources in development that may interest you.
These are developed out of my own pocket and are totally free for all. Part
of my trying to make a VS persons life a little easier.
I have a VS webpage set up, with some ideas for helping VS learning and
living. Its still in early development but there are a set of basic math
tables, that have numbers and graphs to show how basic times tables work.
There is also a bit on how VS people see words, and why they may have
trouble with spelling and writing.
in testing --- An interactive E-Book in pdf format is in testing now, for a
student to be able to see basic mathematics as plus, minus, times and
divide - it gives the student a choice of using words, pictures or both. I
hope to have it up for comment in the next few days.
in Development --- An VS language, which uses VS Glyphs ( a modern form of
pictographs or hieroglyphics for the VS community ) so the VS community
finally has a language of our own.
In Development --- A newsletter or E-Journal written in both English and VS
which deals with VS issues.
Regards
Tony
>I have a VS webpage set up, with some ideas for helping VS learning and
>living
Can you provide us with a link?
- Joni
> "We will focus on such questions as how to know when a gifted child is
ready
> for high school level work..."
<snip>
"The content here sounds like most of it is at the middle school to high
school level."
That's kinda what I thought. What are the signs that your child might be
ready for high school level material and how do you know what high school
level material is? Especially if you aren't using many textbooks? We haven't
found most textbooks to be a good fit, so we use a lot of resources from the
library and he works with some mentors (retired faculty folks so they have
no idea about anything below an undergraduate level) in a couple of
subjects. It's not really unschooling, but it is very child-led and
experiential as much as possible.
I'm not sure we're ready for high school level material at this moment, but
I'm starting to realize it could be sooner than we expect. We're still
pretty new at this and are amazed that parents know their child "completed"
4th grade or are working at a 6th grade level in science.
Thanks! Trish
Kathi asked to detail a few of my hyperschooling experiences and I think Mary's
post reflected a great deal of my initial hyperschooling experience. Removing a
child from school, who is in the wrong placement and hasn't lost their love of
learning may allow for a very different reaction on
the part of the child than one who was hurt more deeply by an incorrect
placement.
The first morning of homeschooling, C (then a young 9 yr old) was up before 5
am, trying to discover why companies made more money when they competed than
when they merged and created a monopoly and charged more for a product. Now I
need more sleep than anyone else in the house and she's was going on about some
business report (not usually her passion) and trying to understanding the
marketing strategy of a Fortune 500 company. I think my first inclination was
to go back to sleep and have her father put her on the bus!! My second was to
try and change the topic and third was to send her to talk product development
costs with her father. Needless to say none of the diversions worked and thus
began my day. LOL!
By the end of the first week, C had developed a pattern where she spent from 5
am 'til midnight taking in content and taking breaks for ballet, music or
playdates. I also saw another, more intense pattern evolving as she'd find an
interest and then want to know literally everything on the topic instantly.
She'd been promised in school "you'll learn that later" so many times that I
think she thought the content would go away if she couldn't access it while she
had the opportunity.
I was exhausted the first few months, my head spinning with all the questions,
still advocating for a child in the local elementary school and barely keeping
ahead of C's reading list. When she decided to read the unabridged version of
Les Miserables I quit trying to read ahead of her at all! Despite all of that,
I always had this nagging 'are we doing enough' question in the back of my mind.
I've since decided that it's just part of being a homeschooler and that I will
probably always question. . .
Now we are two years into this adventure, the youngest had joined us and having
two at home adds a different, sometimes more relaxed and sometimes more intense
element to our days. C still hyperschools and probably always will. She
spent a good deal of time this summer researching graduation requirements,
deciding what needed to get done and asking about transcripts. I felt just a
bit loony having a discussion about highschool credits with my 10 yr old<g>, but
that's just her intense nature. Not all gifted kids are like that - including
our youngest!
Does this give everyone a better picture of my term hyperschooling?
Tonya
Hi, Kathi, and thanks for doing all this. If you (or I) were reluctant to
homeschool, how would you know that it was time to pull your child from
school? How much of the school experience a growth experience and when has
it become damaging?
Kim
A question for
you, Kathy, and those of you who have enrolled your young taglets in college
courses... how did you come to the decision that they were "ready"
for the experience? Not just, "can they handle the material?" -
we use college texts all the time - but, "can they handle the whole
experience?"
What
"indicators" could a parent use to decide yes, or no?
I'm thinking
about the skills that it would require - sitting quietly/patiently in a lecture
situation (and classroom decorum in general)... taking good notes... doing
homework assignments (willingly and in a timely manner)... studying
(and memorizing) for tests and exams... how do you know when the time is
right?
As
"relaxed" homeschoolers, these aren't situations we encounter on a
regular basis. (Other than park classes, etc) Should we try to
introduce these elements to foster the skills in preparation for college classes? How?
(any BTDT's on that out there?)
I imagine some
will suggest trying a highschool class first... but we just can't imagine being
tied down to a daily class for a whole semester or year. :-/
It's a
rather expensive proposition to "try it out and see what
happens"... and getting the college to agree to it will be a
challenge - I can just see the people at the college afterwards, shaking their
heads, saying, "let's never do THAT again" <grin>
So I'm hoping
you have some words of wisdom :-)
-julie
> You might try "Five in a Row" and "Beyond Five in a Row" which use
> children's books and have activities related to the books in each of the
> subject areas. Another option (but expensive) if you don't mind a Christian
> curriculum is "KONOS in a Box" (as opposed to regular KONOS, where you have
> to gather everything yourself! KIAB really does come with *everything* you
> need to implement that unit.
>
> He's really very small for a full-blown curriculum, but if you wanted such a
> thing, the Calvert curriculum might work.
>
> There is also a free online Charlotte Mason curriculum, but it does require
> some "gathering" of materials -- especially at the younger ages (older kids'
> stuff, a lot is online).
>
Hi,
We have just finished B4FIAR, and am doing a smattering of Sonlight K/1 and
Ambleside 1 (thats the online Charlotte Mason curriculum). ds loves all of
it and still hassles me for more.....sigh, roll on tomorrow so I can ask all
the questions in my mind!
warmly
Jane
Hi Kathi,
Can you recommend any good articles on deschooling?
Thanks,
Meredith
For those of you who's kids aren't doing well either in school or homeschool,
one thing to be sure to check out is whether they might have any hidden learning
disabilities or other special needs. Gifted kids are so good at compensating,
up to a point, that it's easy to miss that they have special needs that are
causing them problems - and that can turn to depression, feeling stupid,
rigidity or unwillingness to try new things. Mild dyslexia or visual processing
problems, auditory processing/hearing problems, and written language
disabilities are all easily missed and very problematic.
A couple of articles on the subject:
"Motivation Problem or Hidden Disability?" by me
http://www.uniquelygifted.org/motivation.htm
"Special Education or Gifted? It Might be Hard to Tell" by Susan Winebrenner
http://www.ditd.org/floater.php?location=192
and there are more at http://www.uniquelygifted.org/#_Introductory_Articles.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
"Should we try to introduce these elements to foster the skills in
preparation for college classes? How? (any BTDT's on that out there?)"
Not quite a BTDT and I think we are far far from enrolling DS, 8, in college
classes, but he did work with some mentors last year and took weekly "field
trips" to our local university to work hands-on in a physics lab. This gave
us quite a bit of insight into how long he could focus and maintain
appropriate behavior in such a setting. We were very lucky that the faculty
folks were very flexible and recognized that even though the intellect might
be at one level, much was still at the 7YO level. :-)
Spending so much time in a college environment has led to lots of questions
for DS (and interest in what college classes would be like) so I think the
next step for us is to see if we both can sit in occasionally on some
classes to get an accurate picture of what's expected from the students (and
what a student might expect). Not to learn the material; just for the
experience. DS seems to do much better with identifying and acquiring skills
and knowledge when he sees a purpose for it. Hopefully this will help.
:-) Trish
My son, who is doing high school and college level work in math and
science, is finally reading fiction, something that it took homeschooling
and initial bribery to accomplish. He is actually downloading ebooks to
his calculator! But how do I document his reading, beyond just making a
list of books and authors. He has a really problem being able to tell me
what happened in a book -- says he knows, but can't put it into words.
I know that this has to do with his expressive language LD -- but don't
know how to show what he is doing as part of his portfolio of work. Any
suggestions?"
- Joni
I think I would have her continue (if you allow her to quit, she will
likely avoid similar activities in the future, which is limiting to her
scope and enjoyment of life). What you want to do is help her to see that
she is reacting out of proportion to the disappointment. How? If she is a
math oriented person, have her make predictions based on how the kids
generally score against each other. Factors could include age, size
(height/weight), experience, gender, ranking. Help her "keep score" by
noting wins/losses, and compare her predictions to actuality. She may find
that she does 'better' than would be predicted, which would help ease the
embarrassment of her losses. Charting her win/loss record may also help
(but maybe not right away, if she's moving into a more competitive arena
right now).
If she is more of a writer, maybe she could write a "choose your own
adventure" story, about losing a fencing match. Have her write at least 6
possible endings to the scenario (the very-endings feed off earlier
possibilities, so it's not the same as writing 6 stories). This might help
her and you to explore and understand her fears about losing, as well as a
safe venue to explore alternative reactions.
And, if she's like my oldest dd, you might just want to use some reverse
psychology: you have decided to tell her coach that the more advanced
competition is too much for her now at this age, and you want her to still
fence, but not enter competitions. If she calls your bluff, do it! She will
most likely start itching to prove herself again, if she's still fencing.
HTH!
--- Bridget
>
> Last year E started fencing lessons with a local homeschool group. She
> did very well, joined the fencing club so that she could fence one or
> two evenings a week, and continued with individual lessons weekly. She
was doing very well and her fencing instructor had
> hoped she would join their competitive team.
>
> Recently, they have been having tournaments on Tuesday nights at the
> fencing club where she fences kids on the competitive team. (boys &
> girls) I think this is where the problem started. Some of the boys are
> several years older, bigger, and nationally ranked.
>
> I don't want to force her to do something she has decided she doesn't
> want to do. But I also don't want her to think she has to be one of the
> best at everything and win all the time. She says she doesn't need to be
> the best, but she can't handle being one of the worst. She's really a
> very good fencer, better than she is willing to admit, and losing once
> in awhile is just part of the sport.
>
> She's so used to competeing intellectually with people twice her age and
> still scoring in the top of the class, that when she loses in a physical
> competition to someone her age or only a few years older, she's
> devastated. I think this might be a situation of emotional OE's getting
> the best of her, but I don't know what to suggest to help her overcome
> her negative feelings about herself when she loses to someone else.
Kim wrote:
<<<<< If you (or I) were reluctant to
> homeschool, how would you know that it was time to pull your child from
> school? How much of the school experience a growth experience and when has
> it become damaging?>>>>
A school experience can become damaging to a gifted child when the child is
being bullied (by another child or an adult) -- this is particularly
damaging in gifted children if the bullying involves the child's giftedness
or the giftedness combined with a disability; and when a child lacks
challenge in school and reacts to that by becoming more and more depressed,
or more and more a behavior problem, and it is the depression or the
behavior that the school wants to address, not the underlying reasons for
it.
It also might be time to pull the child from school to homeschool if you
have exhausted your advocacy avenues, and no change is resulting, and the
child is responding negatively (or you are, and it is taking up an
inordinate amount of time and energy that could be better spent on actually
doing something positive that works).
Power's back on! Kathi, this is an awesome conference-thank you!!!!
Can you recommend a graphing calculator? Sounds like a good Christmas
present idea for my parents to consider! They fund violin, why not math?
<g>
I am excited to begin formal, high school record keeping. I think J will
be, too! I'll look for the book by the Callihans.
Becca O.
From: "Kathi Kearney" <kkearney@midcoast.com>
>
> It also might be time to pull the child from school to homeschool if you
> have exhausted your advocacy avenues, and no change is resulting, and the
> child is responding negatively (or you are, and it is taking up an
> inordinate amount of time and energy that could be better spent on actually
> doing something positive that works).
I'd like to add that if you have a gifted/special needs child, this is
especially true if the school refuses to provide the remediation and/or
accommodations that the child needs for the special needs, or else refuses to
allow a child with special needs access to gifted programming (or will only
allow access to gifted/honors programming without the required support).
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
Julie wrote:
<<<<A question for you, Kathy, and those of you who have enrolled
your young taglets in college courses... how did you come to the decision that
they were "ready" for the experience? Not just, "can they
handle the material?" - we use college texts all the time - but, "can
they handle the whole experience?"
What "indicators" could a parent use to decide yes, or no?
>>>>>>
For starters, I use Julian Stanley's advice. He says that:
1) the child himself or herself should be *eager* to move ahead in a radical
acceleration option (not someone *else* eager to have them move ahead, but the
child himself or herself needs to really want to do it!);
2) the child should have SAT-I scores at or above the average of the entering
freshman class at the particular college you have in mind;
3) begin with a class in the child's area of strength and deep interest.
Julie contined:
<<<<I'm thinking about the skills that it would require - sitting
quietly/patiently in a lecture situation (and classroom decorum in general)...
taking good notes... doing homework assignments (willingly and in a timely
manner)... studying (and memorizing) for tests and exams... how do
you know when the time is right?>>>>
Well, and all that, too, Julie! :-) Although a few things can be gotten around.
Lots of college students, for instance, take tape recorders to class these
days, and lots of college students share their class notes with each other, so
perhaps it's not totally necessary for the child to be a master at notetaking.
Sitting quietly in a lecture is important, and so is getting homework in on
time.
You know when the time is right when your child has the maturity to do all
these things, plus the three things Julian Stanley mentioned above. Sometimes
you don't know for sure, and in such a case, perhaps auditing a class is a good
way to try this out.
Another option -- if a child isn't ready to sit for a long three hour lecture,
or isn't ready to be with much older students for long periods of time, but is
ready for college level coursework -- might be to try an online course if the
child has very fast keyboarding skills.
Julie continued:
<<<<As "relaxed" homeschoolers, these aren't situations
we encounter on a regular basis. (Other than park classes, etc)
Should we try to introduce these elements to foster the skills in
preparation for college classes?>>>>
When you think the child is ready, yes, try teaching some of these skills.
Joni wrote:
> My son, who is doing high school and college level work in math and
> science, is finally reading fiction, something that it took homeschooling
> and initial bribery to accomplish. He is actually downloading ebooks to
> his calculator! But how do I document his reading, beyond just making a
> list of books and authors. He has a really problem being able to tell me
> what happened in a book -- says he knows, but can't put it into words.
>
> I know that this has to do with his expressive language LD -- but don't
> know how to show what he is doing as part of his portfolio of work. Any
> suggestions?">>>>
Just keeping a list of the books he's read is an excellent beginning, Joni
(you'd be surprised how many homeschooling parents *don't* keep, or have
their child keep, such a list, and have to try to reconstruct it at the end
of the year!)
His expressive language LD would, indeed, have quite an effect on his not
being able to discuss books with you. Perhaps you could try some other forms
of checking comprehension -- like a project?
Ds and I audited a class, "English Bible Survey", at Westminster Theological
Seminary. The age requirement was waived because they wanted to encourage
the layperson to attend. It gave me the info I needed to know, mainly, that
he was not ready for college! He started out during the first 2 classes by
taking notes (that was **very** impressive considering he's pretty much a
non-writer) but by the 4th class, he was falling asleep during the second
hour! LOL (To be fair, it was a night class) He loved the class, though,
and stuck with it and we even did the final exam together at home.
Becca O.
Meredith wrote:
> Can you recommend any good articles on deschooling?>>>>
Well, the classic book on the general idea of deschooling, from which John
Holt got his ideas on this topic initially, is Ivan Illich's book from 1970
called "Deschooling Society." It's available online in its entirety at:
http://www.ecotopia.com/webpress/deschooling.htm
"Deschooling Society" goes WAY beyond what unschoolers refer to as
"deschooling," and this is a really radical book, but it's worth a look, as
much of the unschooling philosophy as it emerged in the early 1970s was
influenced by this book.
John Holt's book "Teach Your Own" (just recently re-released) also discusses
deschooling in detail.
Meredith wrote:
> For those of you who's kids aren't doing well either in school or homeschool,
> one thing to be sure to check out is whether they might have any hidden
> learning
> disabilities or other special needs. Gifted kids are so good at compensating,
> up to a point, that it's easy to miss that they have special needs that are
> causing them problems - and that can turn to depression, feeling stupid,
> rigidity or unwillingness to try new things. Mild dyslexia or visual
> processing
> problems, auditory processing/hearing problems, and written language
> disabilities are all easily missed and very problematic.>>>>
I want to reiterate and underscore what Meredith has said, above. As I've
perused the various posts yesterday and today, it's become very evident that
there are a number of you out there who do have kids with both diagnosed and
undiagnosed issues such as Meredith mentions, above.
One good thing about homeschooling if you have a twice-exceptional gifted
child is that you can immediately make the accommodations necessary for the
disability, rather than waiting to see if the school will agree to it. In
many cases, even for accommodations that are simple to make and are required
by federal law under section 504 regardless of a child's classroom
performance, schools refuse to make that accommodation for a gifted child.
Becca asked:
> Can you recommend a graphing calculator? >>>
Oh, and you are asking the *non-math* person *this* question, LOLOLOL? I
think I will defer to the mathletes in the audience!
I will say, though, that the student I worked with who did a
pre-algebra/Algebra I tutorial last year in sixth grade found he needed a
graphing calculator once we got to quadratic equations (or, should I say,
once *he* got to quadratic equations!!!). But we didn't have any graphing
calculators at our school, and the high school students have to buy their
own (at $100 a pop. . .) I finally found one that would work for his
purposes, free, on the internet. . .I probably have it bookmarked somewhere.
I could go look.
Meredith wrote:
> From: "Kathi Kearney" <kkearney@midcoast.com>
>>
>> It also might be time to pull the child from school to homeschool if you
>> have exhausted your advocacy avenues, and no change is resulting, and the
>> child is responding negatively (or you are, and it is taking up an
>> inordinate amount of time and energy that could be better spent on actually
>> doing something positive that works).
>
> I'd like to add that if you have a gifted/special needs child, this is
> especially true if the school refuses to provide the remediation and/or
> accommodations that the child needs for the special needs, or else refuses to
> allow a child with special needs access to gifted programming (or will only
> allow access to gifted/honors programming without the required support).>>>>
And unfortunately, this happens WAY too often in American schools. Many
schools deliberately misinterpret the law, and refuse to correct their
actions without a fight (and sometimes refuse, with a fight. . .)
Meredith and others, perhaps you could give us some concrete examples?
Becca asked,
> Can you recommend a graphing calculator?
I think the question was directed to Kathi, but I get this question often
enough these days that I ought to make a FAQ file about it.
One maker of graphic calculators is dominant over all the others, and that
is Texas Instruments. My former favorite maker of graphic calculators,
Hewlett Packard, is retreating from this market and ceasing manufacture of
some models because of the success of the Texas Instruments marketing
campaign. The dominance of Texas Instruments calculators in the educational
market means that you can find many secondary and college mathematics
textbooks with specific keystroke examples for Texas Instruments
calculators, and many third-party downloadable software packages for those
calculators.
http://education.ti.com/educationportal/index.jsp
The main choice in TI calculator models is between the TI-83 Plus and the
TI-89. The TI-83 Plus is fully adequate for mathematics through calculus,
and has a huge number of downloadable programs. The TI-89 includes symbolic
algebra capability, which results in its being banned in some college
courses, and other somewhat more advanced features. (Many of the features of
the TI-89 can be added to the TI-83 by software downloads. The "look and
feel" of the two calculators is not quite identical, but their operating
system software largely is the same.) My son's accelerated secondary
mathematics course through the University of Minnesota Talented Youth
Mathematics Program (UMTYMP)
http://www.math.umn.edu/itcep/umtymp/
says either model of calculators is fine, if you already have a calculator,
and recommends buying the TI-89 to first-time graphing calculator buyers
joining the program.
Most large discount chains and discount office supply chains sell these
calculators cheaply; I am told the lowest prices for these calculators in
the United States are found online.
> Sounds like a good Christmas
> present idea for my parents to consider! They fund violin, why not math?
> <g>
The calculators tend to go on sale (and also short of stock) at the
beginning of the school year, and again in the Christmas shopping season.
Hope this helps!
- Karl M. Bunday
At 09:25 PM 9/19/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Oh, and you are asking the *non-math* person *this* question, LOLOLOL? I
>think I will defer to the mathletes in the audience!
A good starting point is to look at what calculators are allowed by the SAT
and ACT. And then let the child look at the various ones and make a
decision. My son has a TI 89, which is what he picked after looking at all
the models.
TI's website, where they have information on the features of their
different models is at
http://education.ti.com/us/product/main.html
- - Joni
> What "indicators" could a parent use to decide yes, or no? >>>>>
>> For starters, I use Julian Stanley's advice. He says that:
>> 1) the child himself or herself should be *eager* to move ahead in a radical
>> acceleration option (not someone *else* eager to have them move ahead, but
>> the child himself or herself needs to really want to do it!);
That's good advice, but not always so easy in practice, don't you think?
Children (or anyone) can only know if they want to do something if they have
some information about it, and the information we give them nearly always
conveys to them our own enthusiasm or doubts.
Christine
I wrote:
>> What "indicators" could a parent use to decide yes, or no? >>>>>
>>> For starters, I use Julian Stanley's advice. He says that:
>>> 1) the child himself or herself should be *eager* to move ahead in a radical
>>> acceleration option (not someone *else* eager to have them move ahead, but
>>> the child himself or herself needs to really want to do it!);
And Christine then commented:
>
> That's good advice, but not always so easy in practice, don't you think?
> Children (or anyone) can only know if they want to do something if they have
> some information about it, and the information we give them nearly always
> conveys to them our own enthusiasm or doubts.>>>>
Actually, I have found in practice that this advice really does work very
well. It depends on the age of the child, of course, what type of
information you give them and how specific that information is, but even
very young children will usually give you a definite response to the idea of
acceleration one way or the other. I have had kids say, "YES! I want harder
work and I want to be with my older friends!" I have had other kids say "no,
please don't make me be with older kids in a class." It's really important
to listen to them. If the child flat-out nixes acceleration in the form of
grade skips in school, or early entrance to schooling at any level, there
are always other options available (though sometimes harder to maneuver).
I have been involved with quite a few situations where grade skips and other
forms of acceleration were considered, and I have ALWAYS used Julian
Stanley's advice, and it has always stood me, and the child, in good stead.
It may be wise to check to see what is
recommended/required or forbidden in any math program
your child is likely to take in the next few years
before investing in something that has to be replaced
later. Many high school and college programs have
specific calculator rules.
Been there, almost did that!
Trina Overgaard Toups
mailto:
I wonder about resistance that I think I'm seeing in my dd, 11, to her
Algebra work. She's not writing down the problems from the home school coop
teacher, and seems to spend a great deal of time doing just a few things. I
am confused about how to go about motivating her, when I think a bit of
repetitious problem solving is necessary at this point. She has been
interested in other math topics, but we very much need to algebra to happen
this year in order to move onto the science courses she wants to take.
How do you tell when to compact the curriculum and move on, vs. allowing
some practice for fluency. I know that she understands the basic idea of the
equations she is being asked to solve, but seems easily flustered by such
things as 6-x=4/5, where she will end up with negative x in an intermediate
step. I KNOW she's more competent in math than she is showing here.
So I am finding it hard to tell whether to ask her to do more or less of any
given topic! I guess school math has had a bigger effect on her motivation
than I had realized.
Trina
> I have been involved with quite a few situations where grade skips and other
> forms of acceleration were considered, and I have ALWAYS used Julian
> Stanley's advice, and it has always stood me, and the child, in good stead.
>
Oh yes, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about college entry rather
than acceleration. I've had 2 children accelerated and one early entry, and
yes, I agree they are able to conceptualise that, based on their experience
at school or playgroup/pre-school. I think the independence and social
expectations of college, the expectations of self-expression, and the issues
to do with managing time (even moving around huge campuses) and
relationships with lecturers/tutors/peers, are different to the school
experience.
Christine
Christine wrote:
> Oh yes, I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about college entry rather
> than acceleration. I've had 2 children accelerated and one early entry, and
> yes, I agree they are able to conceptualise that, based on their experience
> at school or playgroup/pre-school. I think the independence and social
> expectations of college, the expectations of self-expression, and the issues
> to do with managing time (even moving around huge campuses) and
> relationships with lecturers/tutors/peers, are different to the school
> experience.>>>>>
Yes, it is different from just a "regular" grade acceleration (or two, or
three!) I do know many kids who have gone to college early -- some very
early, such as age 8 or 9 -- and actually have an adult accompany them to
class, and wait outside. For safety reasons. Of course, kids who walk to
elementary school in some urban areas have the same need for adult
supervision for safety, or perhaps more so, than many college campuses these
days!
Hello, Kathi,
This is my first post and first time for a conference like this. Sally Lyons
has done a great deal for us, just as an associate of our sons second grade
teacher. She has introduced us to this topic and conference. We have three GT
kids 8 1/2, 11 (today), 13 yr old. Each are in our school dist GT program, the
GT program is only one grade advanced. Our youngest and oldest are the biggest
concern. The youngest has received IQ testing because his boredom has caused
behavior problems. He is in the HG/PG category. The school resource teacher
thinks he has AS, we disagree but . . . The girls haven't had the behavior
problems as our son, so we haven't had them tested. The 13yr old daughter was
on the honor role the first term in seventh grade then it went down hill from
there. She did great on all the exams, but failed many classes because she got
tired of the busy work, or forgot to turn them, (the busy work in) etc. The
end of the year she didn't turn her final project in in one class at the last
minute because it wasn't perfect enough. I am confident that the oldest would
be motivated enough to do extremely well in home schooling if I felt I could
keep up with her, she is a voracious reader, (it took her about 6 hours to read
the latest Harry Potter book) and all three of the kids, Love to learn, I just
feel extremely unqualified to homeschool, but feel it might be something we may
need to do in the near future. My fear for the youngest is the need for
socialization. He doesn't go out of his way to play with any but his siblings.
As Kim has asked at what point in time or how do we decide enough is enough?
Sorry for the length, I don't know how to be more succinct.
Thank You for sharing your knowledge and expertise.
Ranae
--- Kim wrote:
> Hi, Kathi, and thanks for doing all this. If you (or I) were reluctant to
> homeschool, how would you know that it was time to pull your child from
> school? How much of the school experience a growth experience and when has
> it become damaging?
>
> Kim
Ranae wrote:
> This is my first post and first time for a conference like this.>>>>
First of all, welcome to the conference! If you like this, you'll probably
enjoy any number of gifted ed. listservs, too! :-)
Ranae then continued to describe her children's situation in school, then
asked:
<<<<<I just
> feel extremely unqualified to homeschool, but feel it might be something we
> may
> need to do in the near future. My fear for the youngest is the need for
> socialization. He doesn't go out of his way to play with any but his
> siblings.
> As Kim has asked at what point in time or how do we decide enough is
enough?>>>>>
You, as the parents, are the only ones who can really decide when "enough is
enough" as you put it. You are also the only ones who can decide if
homeschooling is the right option for your child and your family (it isn't
the right option for everyone!)
Just about everyone I know, with the possible exception of those trained as
elementary teachers, initially felt "extremely unqualified to homeschool" --
especially if it was something they never intended to consider initially.
But there are *tons* of support networks out there -- online and in real
life -- things that just weren't available 25 years ago. (Yes, this is my
*25th year* of working with homeschooling families! My, time does fly!)
There are online communities and listservs for families using almost every
kind of curriculum out there. There are listservs for those using a
particular method or approach to homeschooling (e. g., unschooling,
classical, etc.) There are listservs for those homeschooling gifted
children. In your local community, there may be "real life" co-op classes
for homeschoolers, where you and other parents can trade off your skills in
teaching classes in areas where you have some expertise (and maybe NOT have
to teach algebra or chemistry, which might be someone *else's* passion and
skill!)
None of this was widely available 25 years ago, but provides homeschooling
families with a plethora of options today.
Still, the best encouragement and help is always one-on-one, so I'd advise
you to find another local homeschooling family homeschooling a gifted child,
and just talk with them.
Dear List Members,
I was so glad to hear that Becca's electrical power to her home returned and
she has been able to participate in the conference again.
To all of our list members who are experiencing the effects of Hurricane Isabel
I, along with other list members who are not affected by the Hurricane, hope
your loved ones are safe and getting the help to whatever your needs may be in
addition to having electrical power return to your homes.
Obviously ,for many who are currently experiencing the effects of Hurricane
Isabel, you may not be able to read this message for several days when this
conference will be over. I still wanted to post this message to let you know
that we were thinking of you and hoping you and your loved ones are/will be
safe.
Also, please know that I will post emails from this conference as part of the
archives linked on the website so even if you were not able to post you may be
able to see what was posted while you were involved with a Hurricane!
Enjoy tomorrow - the last day of the conference. Please continue to follow
Kathi's outline as posted on the first day of the conference for Day Three.
In addition, please take the time to thank Kathi online for her volunteering
her time and expertise. Yes, tomorrow will be another very busy day of
postings:))))
Again, we love all of our very active posters and just would like to encourage
lurkers to feel comfortable to post and remember the option to post
anonymously if you feel a need to do so:) Learning from various different
experiences and perspectives, especially BTDT experiences can be so comforting
and a great support.
Kind regards,
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
Sorry this is probably late, but I just thought I'd mention my website which is created with gifted homeschoolers in mind: http://advocacyweb.netfirms.com The front page is fairly self-explanatory. The site is an assistance to my son and I. He is 13 and I am 32 and we are both university/homeschool students. cheers Rosie Williams
Rose Williams
http://advocacyweb.netfirms.com
Day 3 of our conference is open to any questions that have not already been
addressed, or any new, relevant topics for discussion. These can be
additional questions about the first two days' topics, or any other topics
relating to homeschooling gifted children.
In addition, there are some ancillary issues relating to homeschooling
gifted children that didn't fit neatly into the first two days' topics.
These include such things as:
1. When do we know we've finished a grade level and/or are ready to
graduate?
2. What specific legal and legislative issues commonly crop up that affect
gifted homeschoolers?
3. Politics and policy issues related to giftedness and to homeschooling,
and how those policy issues affect families who are homeschooling (or
considering homeschooling) gifted children
4. What happens to grown-up gifted homeschoolers
5. The history of homeschooling gifted children
6. Specific curriculum materials and recommendations that you have found
particularly effective with your own homeschooled gifted children
Again, I am grateful you all decided to attend this conference -- and I will
reiterate what Sally said, and invite the lurkers to post. Remember, if you
have a question or comment you'd be more comfortable asking or making
confidentially, e-mail your question or comment to Sally, and she will post
it without your name or e-mail address.
I have two questions which I would appreciate some help with:
1. What is a good way to find a mentor for your child?
2. My son used to ask a ton of questions. These seem to have dried up.
How can I rekindle the need to find out and explore?
Lois T
Rosie wrote:
<<<<<Sorry
this is probably late, but I just thought I'd mention my website which is
created with gifted homeschoolers in mind: http://advocacyweb.netfirms.com The
front page is fairly self-explanatory. The site is an assistance to my son and
I. He is 13 and I am 32 and we are both university/homeschool
students.>>>>>
Thank you for letting us know about your website, Rosie!!
And after looking at it, I have a question for you: Is Open Learning Australia
(the university program) open only to Australians, or may foreigners also use
it?
Rosie Williams (who made the neat website!) would you please e-mail me
privately? I tried to send you a private e-mail and it bounced! Thanks!
Lois asked:
> 1. What is a good way to find a mentor for your child?>>>>
Although there are formal mentorship programs available, either through
nonprofit organizations or through businesses, some of the best mentorships
that happen seem to happen "naturally" -- e. g., as a consequence of an
encounter with an interesting, talented person while encountering materials
or an event or a topic of interest, or through natural community networks
such as community classes, church, clubs, homeschool support groups etc. I
also know a fair number of people who have been reasonably successful at
finding either current or retired college professors with an interest in
mentoring gifted homeschooled kids.
As with any adult who works with your child, be sure you are comfortable
with this person and be sure that you have done some background checking of
references. In public and private schools in most states now, actual
criminal background checks are done before a teacher can be certified or can
hold a teaching position in the school (even for substitute teaching in some
states). Some churches also do background checks of all volunteer church
workers. But other than that, you will have to do your own reference checks.
This is particularly important if you plan to leave the mentor alone with
your child at any point.
Lois also asked:
>
> 2. My son used to ask a ton of questions. These seem to have dried up.
> How can I rekindle the need to find out and explore?>>>>
Lois, can you tell me more?
> Day 3 of our conference is open to any questions that have not already been
> addressed, or any new, relevant topics for discussion. These can be
> additional questions about the first two days' topics, or any other topics
> relating to homeschooling gifted children.
Hi,
I have a ds who is turning 4 in December. He is reading simple picture
books..ones that he hasn't seen before, ie just borrowed them from the
mobile library. He is also self motivatedly starting to write individual
letters, is adding simple sums ie 3 + 2. He appears to have a speech
impediment (I have trouble understanding him at times). He seems to immerse
himself in something ie he completed 35 mazes this am in about 45 minutes,
then seemed satisfied. I have been doing a range of montessori activities
along with B4FIAR, Sonlight and Ambleside 1, so far. He still hassles me
for more reading and questions incessantly....
My problem is that we live in a very tiny rural town (600 people) and nobody
supports us in this town. All are shocked and disbelieving that he is
reading and everybody who knows him thinks he should be at the preschool and
even strangers - all think we should be supporting the preschool through
attending. I will not send him there and there is nothing that will
convince me that sending him to school will be any good either. So apart
from the lack of support in town and sometimes open hostility we are
somewhat isolated socially (other parents will not come over with their
children, we do not get invited anywhere) and resource wise (no homeschool
support group here, nor any real resources with regard to learning - no
library apart from mobile library once a week)
One obvious solution is to move, but there is no money available for such a
thing, we are literally stuck here. I would like some advice about what
else we may be able to do - has anybody ever been in a situation such as
this? Kathi, have you known anybody in this situation?
Jane wrote:
> I have a ds who is turning 4 in December. He is reading simple picture
> books..ones that he hasn't seen before, ie just borrowed them from the
> mobile library. He is also self motivatedly starting to write individual
> letters, is adding simple sums ie 3 + 2. He appears to have a speech
> impediment (I have trouble understanding him at times). He seems to immerse
> himself in something ie he completed 35 mazes this am in about 45 minutes,
> then seemed satisfied. I have been doing a range of montessori activities
> along with B4FIAR, Sonlight and Ambleside 1, so far. He still hassles me
> for more reading and questions incessantly....
>
> My problem is that we live in a very tiny rural town (600 people) and nobody
> supports us in this town. All are shocked and disbelieving that he is
> reading and everybody who knows him thinks he should be at the preschool and
> even strangers - all think we should be supporting the preschool through
> attending. I will not send him there and there is nothing that will
> convince me that sending him to school will be any good either. So apart
> from the lack of support in town and sometimes open hostility we are
> somewhat isolated socially (other parents will not come over with their
> children, we do not get invited anywhere) and resource wise (no homeschool
> support group here, nor any real resources with regard to learning - no
> library apart from mobile library once a week)
>
> One obvious solution is to move, but there is no money available for such a
> thing, we are literally stuck here. I would like some advice about what
> else we may be able to do - has anybody ever been in a situation such as
> this? Kathi, have you known anybody in this situation? >>>>
Jane, this describes more what the situation was for homeschoolers about 25
years ago. 25 years ago in Maine, there were about three kids homeschooling
in the entire state -- and their parents often got a lot of flak from
community members, as you describe above. In one real sense, that sort of
flak is not your problem, but theirs -- but it does affect you, and it can
be hurtful.
It sounds like you are really convinced that both the preschool and the
public school are not going to be a good placement for him. If this is so,
then you are going to have to stick to your guns about this. But you can do
it in a graceful way, and as people get to know you better (or just come to
accept the situation more) you may find that attitudes slowly change.
In the meantime, though, you need some support yourself, so if you are not
on some of the e-mail lists out there for parents of gifted children, it
might be a good idea to subscribe. The TAGMAX listserv is wonderful, as it's
focused on families who are homeschooling gifted kids, so you get to discuss
both gifted issues *and* homeschooling issues at the same time and receive
support for each (rather than being in a situation on a gifted list where
you are always having to defend your choice to homeschool, or being on a
regular homeschooling list where people are not always as supportive of
giftedness as you might wish).
As for resources, at least you have the Internet! That was not available to
many rurally isolated families even *five* years ago. There are wonderful,
free educational resources on the internet, more than you could ever use and
better than any mobile library. I strongly encourage you to buy one book --
LauraMaery Gold's "Homeschool Your Child for Free" -- which is the best
compendium I've seen anywhere of free online educational resources. She
reviews each resource, and it is divided up by grade and subject areas. It
costs about $20 retail and is worth every penny (though you might want to
check out her website to see if a revised edition is coming out soon).
Hi Kathi,
Thank you for your considered response. I had decided against a preschool
experience some time ago, simply because there are issues I have about the
state 'taking over' the parenting role and other thoughts that I will not go
into on this board. I ruled out the school a few months ago for a number of
reasons.
I will look for TAGMAX and the book you have suggested, but it may not be
available here in Australia. Some things I have found useful is the
Montessori email lists including ones for homeschooling and making the
materials. They have been fantastic.
I try very hard to be gracious to the people in town, but it is so hard when
you are up against what seems to be the proverbial brick wall on a constant
basis. ds is lacking social interaction at the moment and that causes me a
great deal of concern. I am going to try and book into a storytime session
nearby in order to try and overcome this - hopefully the attitudes in that
town will be a little more relaxed.
warmly
Jane
Hello,
I have been sidelined by the hurricane and have spent this morning reading
posts from the past two days. Thanks for the interesting discussion!
I have a query about early college/high school course for my 9 yo ds. We began
hs'ing last year and quickly went through math levels - he will be starting
algebra next month. He reads avidly for our history lessons and seems to be
capable of at least high school level science - I believe almost college level
with some hand holding.
I have been thinking about guiding him through AP level courses (perhaps
auditing a course at a local college) and documenting by signing him up for the
AP tests. This way he would have some college credit and save us money in
tuition along the way.
Does anyone have any experience with this sort of strategy or know of anyone
that has dome something similar?
Thanks!!
Carol L
G'day Joni,
As I said the webpages are very basic and just starting out. the link is
http://www.gftd.org/VS%20Main.htm
There is a basic tables sample and a interactive maths e-book sample for
infants / kindergarten.
The language part has a description on how VS people see words as mini
paintings, and why spelling and writing are more difficult for a VS person.
Regards
Tony
At 03:38 PM 19/09/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:25 AM 9/20/2003 +1000, you wrote:
>>I have a VS webpage set up, with some ideas for helping VS learning and
>>living
>
>Can you provide us with a link?
>
>
>- Joni
> Kay wrote:
>
>> I am homeschooling my 8th grader this year hoping to rescue him from the
>> "drudgery" of traditional curriculum he has "endured" at school. The thing
>> that has shocked me is that at home he only wants to do the traditional
>> curriculum (albeit 12th grade level)! He is stonewalling any of the "gifted"
>> or open ended types of material (such as Duke LOYO, Cornerstone's Starting
>> Points and Progeny Press Lit study guides) I thought he would embrace. I am
>> afraid I waited too late and that he is already "turned off" to higher level
>> thinking. Have others of you seen this happen and can it be reversed? Thanks
>> in advance.>>>>
>
> Maybe, Kay, he is doing what he is comfortable with in a new situation? The
> fact that he's an 8th grader doing a 12th grade traditional curriculum is
> very impressive!!!
>
> And some gifted kids *do* prefer to do a regular curriculum at an
> accelerated pace, rather than more gifted, higher-level thinking, enrichment
> type activities. Probably the 12th grade curriculum is providing some higher
> level thinking for him, just because it is four years advanced.
>
> I wouldn't worry about it. Sounds like he is doing fine. What I'd suggest is
> that instead of bombarding him with a full curriculum of "higher level"
> stuff, you choose ONE (like perhaps a Progeny Press lit study guide) and
> start with that. Eventually he might discover he likes it!
>
> For a child who has only been in a traditional school setting with no gifted
> program, it's a huge jump sometimes to leave what's comfortable completely
> behind. At least his is doing 12th grade work, not 8th grade work!
>
>
Kathy,
I don't want to clutter the list, but I really HAVE to say thank you for
taking your time to do this conference. After reading your thoughtful and
encouraging answer, I got the best night's sleep I've had in a while!
Kay H
Jane you wrote:
> I will look for TAGMAX and the book you have suggested, but it may not be
> available here in Australia.>>>>>
Here is the subscription info for the TAGMAX listserv (thanks to Carolyn K.
for posting it prominently on Hoagies! This is cut and pasted from her
link):
-------------
TAGMAX - home educating gifted and talented children. To subscribe, send a
message with "subscribe tagmax firstname lastname" in the body to
listserv@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
--------------
And you should be able to order the book from amazon.com, from anywhere in
the world!
Carol wrote:
> I have a query about early college/high school course for my 9 yo ds. We
> began
> hs'ing last year and quickly went through math levels - he will be starting
> algebra next month. He reads avidly for our history lessons and seems to be
> capable of at least high school level science - I believe almost college level
> with some hand holding.
>
> I have been thinking about guiding him through AP level courses (perhaps
> auditing a course at a local college) and documenting by signing him up for
> the
> AP tests. This way he would have some college credit and save us money in
> tuition along the way.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with this sort of strategy or know of anyone
> that has dome something similar?>>>>>
The AP course descriptions are all free online at the College Board's
website:
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html
It's not well known, but you do *not* have to be formally enrolled in an AP
course in order to take the AP exam (however, if you'd LIKE to be enrolled
in an AP course and don't have them in your area, or you have a young child
or a homeschooled student, there are many online options for AP courses,
including some specifically for homeschoolers).
One other option is to take the CLEP tests instead. Many colleges and
universities will give direct college credit for CLEP exams (but you have to
check with the college you are interested in to see which ones they will
accept, just the way you have to do with AP exams). With AP, colleges have
the option of either issuing college credit, or offering "advanced standing"
(no credit, but you get to get out of the intro courses in that area). With
CLEP, the credit is awarded directly.
David and Laurie Callihan's book contains an entire chapter on using the
CLEP exams as part of homeschooling.
The Callihans have two articles about CLEP exams and homeschooling on the
crosswalk.com website, which provide very informative "how-tos". Here are
the links:
http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1196781.html
http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1197970.html
Both AP exams and CLEP exams can save a family a considerable amount of
college tuition, if the child does well and the college you are interested
in accepts the exams for actual college credit.
Thank you Kathi for being the "speaker" for this conference.
How do you know when to pull out your suspected 6 yo GT son? He has not been through any trials at school yet, but I am worried that they are looming in his future. He has SI modulation issues, expressive language issues and visual tracking and processing problems. He is in a combined 1/2 grade class. In kindergarten ( mainly unit studies) he would come home full of excitement about the topic they were covering- it didn't really seeem to matter which topic- he enjoyed the "in depth" part of learning. He is in his 3rd week of first grade and I don't see that excitement. His main concern now is recess. He got really upset during his Speech eval b/c he missed recess! This week he decided to teach himself cursive handwriting- now he is doing it better than the second graders. His teacher told us he could write cursive in class but it hasn't happened yet. She did accomodate him by using a different reading book. In social studies they are studying the continents and oceans- he already knows those and much more. DH really doesn't think he is qualified to homeschool and he is the primary at home parent. His teacher says that she almost cried for us b/c she knows that DS will always be different. Should we push for more accomodations?
Here's a Potpourri question...Since we have been outside of the public
school system, my 12 yo has never had any kind of gifted evaluation or IQ
testing. He did take the SAT last year as part of Duke TIP, however. Is
there is a scale somewhere that roughly correlates age and SAT score with IQ
and/or level of giftedness? I see all the good articles and resources on the
net, but I don't really know what applies to my son and what doesn't because
I don't know his "category." Thanks!
Kay H
MBeauch618@aol.com wrote:
<<<How do you know when to pull out your suspected 6 yo GT son? He has
not been through any trials at school yet, but I am worried that they are
looming in his future. He has SI modulation issues, expressive language issues
and visual tracking and processing problems. He is in a combined 1/2 grade
class. In kindergarten ( mainly unit studies) he would come home full of
excitement about the topic they were covering- it didn't really seeem to matter
which topic- he enjoyed the "in depth" part of learning. He is in his
3rd week of first grade and I don't see that excitement. His main concern now
is recess. He got really upset during his Speech eval b/c he missed
recess! This week he decided to teach himself cursive handwriting- now he is
doing it better than the second graders. His teacher told us he could write
cursive in class but it hasn't happened yet. She did accomodate him by using a
different reading book. In social studies they are studying the continents and
oceans- he already knows those and much more. DH really doesn't think he is
qualified to homeschool and he is the primary at home parent. His teacher says
that she almost cried for us b/c she knows that DS will always be different.
Should we push for more accomodations? >>>>
This sounds like a situation where you are not yet convinced that you want to homeschool, and one where the school might be likely to make some appropriate accommodations, given what they have already done. So, I think in this case, I would see what other accommodations could be made in the school setting first. This could include anything from different or more complex materials that relate to the topics being studied, to acceleration in either subject area or a full grade skip (or two, if necessary). And everything in between.
It's not uncommon for a young child to get upset about missing recess for testing! Recess is VERY important to little kids (and big ones, too. . .the gifted sixth graders I teach part time hate missing their recess!)
Our son returned to school this year after we took him out in the middle of
a really bad first grade year. The second grade teacher is excellent and is
trying to meet his needs. Our one concern is while our son is loving
school, he says it is all so easy. We are meeting next week to discuss
math. A particular strength of my sons. The school already does
differentiation with math at the 2/3 level, they divide the kids between
three teachers each teach one level of math. One does second grade, one
does third grade and the other does enrichment for those kids that know the
subject. They pretest before every unit to decide where the child goes for
that unit. Nothing I can argue with except that in April of this year my
son started EPGY math and is finishing the fourth grade. He is going
through math very quickly considering the amount of time we have spent on
it. At the current rate he will be getting into high school math sometime
in the third grade. I guess the debate is what should we try to advocate
for: part-time home schooling, acceleration in the schools, or should we
leave it as is since he is happy and keep doing the after-schooling? This
year does not seem as critical as next year when the disparity will widen
considerably and he has the same enrichment problems as the previous year.
One other question is I know EPGY is pretty much the standard for elementary
gifted long distance math, however I noticed John Hopkins has a different
math program starting with pre-algebra. The program itself (at least the
demo) seems far more user friendly and interesting for my son. Are the
academics at the same level? Any pros or cons to one versus the other past
the elementary (sixth grade) stage? We are also supplementing with
challenge math, and an old program my husband went through called the
elements of mathematics.
Thanks for the help,
Wendy
Kay asked:
> Here's a Potpourri question...Since we have been outside of the public
> school system, my 12 yo has never had any kind of gifted evaluation or IQ
> testing. He did take the SAT last year as part of Duke TIP, however. Is
> there is a scale somewhere that roughly correlates age and SAT score with IQ
> and/or level of giftedness? I see all the good articles and resources on the
> net, but I don't really know what applies to my son and what doesn't because
> I don't know his "category." Thanks!>>>>>
Others may have a better answer to this than I do. The only thing I know of,
of this type, are the requirements for entering the high-IQ societies
(Mensa, and some of the high-IQ societies "beyond" Mensa, like Triple 9,
Prometheus, and Mega).
The last time I checked, there was a minimum score on SAT-I that could be
used for Mensa (and beyond) qualification, that these groups said correlated
somewhat with the minimum IQ score for qualification for these societies.
However, remember that next year, thanks to the state of California, the
SAT-I is being completely revised so it will no longer be an aptitude test,
but just another achievement test, instead. I have no idea (and I don't
believe the talent searches do, either) what effect this is going to have on
the 7th graders who take the SAT-I after its metamorphosis.
My worst fear is that after the SAT-I is magically turned into an
achievement test so ETS can keep its very lucrative California market, we
will have lost the last really good current measure of extreme verbal
ability (since none of the new revisions of IQ tests -- WISC-IV, SB5, or
WJ-III) are particularly strong in this regard.
Wendy wrote:
> Our son returned to school this year after we took him out in the middle of
> a really bad first grade year. The second grade teacher is excellent and is
> trying to meet his needs. Our one concern is while our son is loving
> school, he says it is all so easy. We are meeting next week to discuss
> math. A particular strength of my sons. The school already does
> differentiation with math at the 2/3 level, they divide the kids between
> three teachers each teach one level of math. One does second grade, one
> does third grade and the other does enrichment for those kids that know the
> subject. They pretest before every unit to decide where the child goes for
> that unit. Nothing I can argue with except that in April of this year my
> son started EPGY math and is finishing the fourth grade. He is going
> through math very quickly considering the amount of time we have spent on
> it. At the current rate he will be getting into high school math sometime
> in the third grade. I guess the debate is what should we try to advocate
> for: part-time home schooling, acceleration in the schools, or should we
> leave it as is since he is happy and keep doing the after-schooling? This
> year does not seem as critical as next year when the disparity will widen
> considerably and he has the same enrichment problems as the previous year.>>>>
He's already beyond the 2/3 level in math.
So you have a choice.
You can leave the situation well enough alone (using the adage, never bother
a happy child!)
You could homeschool just for math.
You could provide the EPGY math program to be used at school during math
time, and when everyone else is in their math class, your son does EPGY.
You could ask if he could be moved to a regular fifth grade math class
during math time (but be prepared to need a few accommodations -- most
second graders can't handle the amount of copying required from hard-back
math textbooks, so the practice pages may need to be xeroxed for him. I'd
also recommend the use of 1/2 inch graph paper for all calculations, it is
much easier not to mix things up that way!)
Wendy continued:
>
> One other question is I know EPGY is pretty much the standard for elementary
> gifted long distance math, however I noticed John Hopkins has a different
> math program starting with pre-algebra. The program itself (at least the
> demo) seems far more user friendly and interesting for my son. Are the
> academics at the same level? Any pros or cons to one versus the other past
> the elementary (sixth grade) stage?>>>
I have not seen this software, so I will defer to those who have! Any
comments, anyone!
>>One other question is I know EPGY is pretty much the standard for elementary
>>gifted long distance math, however I noticed John Hopkins has a different
>>math program starting with pre-algebra.
>>
The last I knew, JHU used Academic Systems for their algebra series.
Academic Systems has a demo available on their site
(http://www.academic.com). It is more visual, has far better graphics
and more interesting (per my dd) than the EPGY software. Stanford
continues with the EPGY model through algebra. The scope and sequence
for both programs should be available from the websites or via email to
the program offices.
Other options that are mentioned frequently on the homeschooling lists
include Boxer Math, Riverdeep and Aleks. All have lower annual costs
than either Stanford or JHU.
Hope this helps!
Tonya
Hi Leslie,
I wrote:
> Got any advice, Kathi? Anyone else BTDT? All suggestions
> would be appreciated!
"Kushner, Leslie" wrote:
> J is an excellent swimmer and was invited to join a local Y swim team a
> number of years ago (I think she was in 3rd grade). She is very small for
> her age, but the categories were strictly age divided. Often, in
> competition, she was pitted against others much bigger and stronger than she
> was and she was unhappy with how she placed in the competition. She became
> so miserable that she asked to quit the team.
<snip>
> Competitive athletics involve both physical ability and a special type of
> mental fortitude that, perhaps, doesn't suit J well. I look at it this way.
> All of these experiences contribute to her knowledge of self.
Yes, this does sound like you've dealt with a similar situation.
I'm think I'm still grappling with the issue of whether E has a
distorted concept of her abilities, (Last night she said she wasn't good
enough to continue fencing.) and is giving up for that reason, or
whether competitive sports just aren't for her. If it's the former, then
I'd like her to realize how good she really is. If it's the latter, then
fine, there are plenty of other physical activities for her to engage in
that are non-competitive. I don't think she's clear on the reason why,
so I'm getting mixed messages.
Thanks for sharing you experiences with me!
Best wishes,
Mary
Just a couple of points I wanted to say during this conference.
I notice many of you seem to somewhat view college/university as the "end
of the trip" -- trying to get your kids on the right path in order that
they will finally find university as the place where they better "fit in"
because of the higher level thinking.
I just wanted to say that it isn't always exactly like that. My oldest son
(PG) skipped most of high school and now is a sophomore at a local
university, studying toward a dual major. Now, although he admits that
university work is better than high school work, he also feels many days
that it is also "too easy" and somewhat unsatisfying. And he also
encounters some of the same problems he did in high school.
Example: Yesterday, he told me, his Statistics class professor presented a
problem incorrectly during class. He said he "took her aside" AFTER
class, and showed her how her problem was incorrect. In fact, he said, "I
had to work that problem three DIFFERENT ways in order to make her see
that the way she presented it in class was wrong." She finally graciously
agreed with him and said she would say something about it in the next
class.
The good thing about this was that she was willing to admit to an error,
and to listen to him. The bad thing is that it shows there isn't a whole
lot he is learning in this class, but many times he ends up teaching the
teacher. And he isn't even a math major.
So be prepared for your PG kids to also feel somewhat out of place in a
university setting as well. But at least usually by then they are able to
deal with it a little better.
To the one that asked about SAT- IQ equivalents. I don't know that I
would trust any type of conversion of that score. My son (above) who
scored very high on IQ, did not do nearly as well as expected on SAT,
because he was so meticulous with each answer that he ended up running out
of time on several parts, thus lowering his score quite a bit. I didn't
really see a parrallel between SAT scores and IQ -- SAT just tells you how
well you test on an SAT.
Tracy
Hi Bridget,
I wrote:
> > Last year E started fencing lessons with a local homeschool group.
Bridget wrote:
> I think I would have her continue (if you allow her to quit, she will
> likely avoid similar activities in the future, which is limiting to her
> scope and enjoyment of life). What you want to do is help her to see that
> she is reacting out of proportion to the disappointment.
I agree. I don't want her to start avoiding activities where she doesn't
always finish at the top of the list of competitors. I want her to
realize she doesn't have to be exceptionally gifted in everything she
does to get enjoyment from the experience.
Thanks for all your creative suggestions. She has been writing a lot
lately. Maybe I can get her to put her feelings in writing so I'll
understand the root of the issue more clearly.
> And, if she's like my oldest dd, you might just want to use some reverse
> psychology: you have decided to tell her coach that the more advanced
> competition is too much for her now at this age, and you want her to still
> fence, but not enter competitions.
I'm thinking of dropping the club membership and just paying for private
lessons with her coach each week for awhile so she doesn't quit
entirely. Although to really progress you need to practice and you can't
do that on your own. You need an equally matched opponent, although you
needn't keep track of points.
Thanks again,
Mary
Wnedy wrote:
> > One other question is I know EPGY is pretty much the standard
> for elementary
> > gifted long distance math, however I noticed John Hopkins has a
> different
> > math program starting with pre-algebra. The program itself (at
> least the
> > demo) seems far more user friendly and interesting for my son. Are the
> > academics at the same level? Any pros or cons to one versus
> the other past
> > the elementary (sixth grade) stage?>>>
Kathi wrote:
> I have not seen this software, so I will defer to those who have! Any
> comments, anyone!
Johns Hopkins uses AS (Academic Systems) for pre-algebra, Algebra I and II.
We used to be able to purchase it directly from them (AS) for $90.00 a
course. Just recently they have revised their policy to EXCLUDE
homschoolers. You can now participate in the AS program through one of
their "Partners" listed below (sounds like Airline miles doesn't it).
AS was originally developed for the college student that never got Algebra I
the first 1 or 2 times around. It is not a program written for the GT
student and their are a lot of holes. It is a basic "plug 'n chug"
program.EPGY on the other was developed with the gt kid in mind. Their scope
and sequence for the K-8th made a pre-Algebra class redundant, a hs geometry
class was a complete review and they also covered rt. angle trig.
Here's the rub : JHU costs a ton of money and is equal to Stanford's cost.
For my money EPGY has the far superlative program. However AS has been
widely accepted, especially among the younger set taking higher level math.
It is full of graphics , bells and whistles and drove my VS kid nuts.I have
heard this fromother VS kids also. They prefer the less glitzy format of
EPGY. It's YMMV. For the $1500.00 a year you receive tutorial support but
OUR kids don't need it. It is a cash cow-- plain and simple plus you have to
take the Talent Search test (more money) to "qualify" to participate in
their program.
I Academy used to be a viable alternative when they used AS as it was
intended. The original intention : AS let you move at your own pace. My dd
finished the Algebra I (1 & 2)sequence in 9 weeks.It was also free to WA
residents and a nominal fee to out-of-state $150.00 a year. NOW they have
revised their program and it is totally unsuitable for the GT child. You can
only move at your pace with the discretion of the teacher. They are
insisting on homework (all typed out) whether you pre-tested the unit at
100% or not. Totally against the AS concept. IA has managed to turn the AS
program into an on-line version of a spiraling curriculum . Algebra II had a
review of Algebra I that took well into November. In fact my dd was FORCED
(yes forced) to stay in the review longer than it took her to compete the
Algebra I course in it's entirety. Boy does this remind me of PS. The first
three months of the school year review the last 3 months of the prior year
when all the new material was presented. OOOps I forgot.... IA is public
school.
I have no experience with phoenix academics.
Best,
Kristine
http://www.phoenixacademies.org/index2.cfm
Tracy wrote:
> To the one that asked about SAT- IQ equivalents. I don't know that I
> would trust any type of conversion of that score. My son (above) who
> scored very high on IQ, did not do nearly as well as expected on SAT,
> because he was so meticulous with each answer that he ended up running out
> of time on several parts, thus lowering his score quite a bit. >>>>
Tracy, I'd like to point out that this same phenomenon -- of being very
meticulous and running out of time on parts of the test -- is just as likely
to happen on all of the group and most of the individual IQ tests out there.
All the group IQ tests (CoGAT, Otis Lennon, etc.) to my knowledge, are timed
tests. Ditto with all the group achievement tests, with the exception of the
new Stanford 10 revision -- which took away timing.
Almost all the individual IQ tests have a number of speeded components (and
this is particularly true of the WISC-III and WISC-IV). Of all the major
individual IQ tests out there, only the SBLM, SB-IV, and the new SB5 are
essentially untimed tests (each test has a few items that are timed; SB5 has
only one subtest with a hard time limit).
So if you have a meticulous, perfectionistic child, on any of the group IQ
tests and on the WISC-III and WISC-IV, they likely are going to lose points.
Same for timed group achievement tests -- AND the SAT-I and ACT.
Elsewhere I've gotten roped into defending the "gifted" label and the "levels of
giftedness" labels. I know they're necessary for HG+ kids in traditional
schools--and you're never going to convince me otherwise, so don't try! ;) But
are they necessary or even important if you're homeschooling? What if you're
unschooling?
Thanks for being here, Kathi!
Cole M.
Becca wrote:
> 2. What if he's proficient at higher level concepts but still struggles
> with "arithmetic"? Can I consider him proficient or do I need to keep
> reviewing?
Becca in my experience yes you will need to on an as needed basis. The
review usually takes 20-30 seconds for the memory light bulb to go off.
FWIW my dd did all of Algebra I and rt. angle trig counting on her fingers.
She also never fully understood fractions until she got into complex
fractions.
She was un able to write out long division or even do it until very
recently. She actually did division in a convoluted way of multiplication
which I will NEVER understand. I didn't give it more than a yawn. This year
when she went back to ps I panicked and realized at grade level she may be
asked to long division in math class. Yikes. So I asked her to do a few
problems. She looked at me like I had two heads and sat down and whipped off
a whole bunch of problems ..rather indignantly I might add.I am estatic
..she can do it!!!. DD then accuse my of being senile and claims she always
knew how to do it. (she didn't folks ..trust me!)
Gosh unless you use the concepts daily in life we all have to review.
Frankly imaginary numbers are not part of my day.
>
> He did all his math mentally, left to right until I showed him
> how schools
> do it. He uses techniques from the "Mega Math" books and videos and those
> are helpful. The thing is, he loves math and physics and reads math,
> physics, and chess books for pleasure but arithmetic remains his struggle.
> Remind me, please, what to do with this kind of learner! (He get "brain
> glitches", too, but that's another story!)
This changed dramatically for my dd when she had to do proofs. I think
geometry should be first , before Algebra. The logic of Geometry is a
cornerstone for higher math ( but whom am I!?). DD started using pencil and
paper when she hit Algebra II (not the review) and even then a calculator is
in order for much of it.
Does this help?
Kristine
Tracy wrote about sending her son to college where the statistics professor
made an err in class:
> The good thing about this was that she was willing to admit to an error,
> and to listen to him. The bad thing is that it shows there isn't a whole
> lot he is learning in this class, but many times he ends up teaching the
> teacher. And he isn't even a math major.
But you know, being able to teach someone is an excellent form of learning.
When a talented person picks up a book, they will generally learn the material
on their own. If the classroom provides the opportunity to exercise that
learning - even (or especially) in finding errors in the content - that's an
opportunity to be taken.
Having said that, there are an incredible diversity of courses at the college
level. Some much less challenging than others. So, for our kids, what college
offers is the chance to pick those courses and to engage the professor in a way
that is most likely not possible in high school. (Keep in mind, also, that no
system is perfect - there will be disappointments from time to time - the
professor may not be great, the course not what you expected..., but overall it
is a much different animal than high school).
Carol L
> Just a couple of points I wanted to say during this conference.
>
> I notice many of you seem to somewhat view college/university as the "end
> of the trip" -- trying to get your kids on the right path in order that
> they will finally find university as the place where they better "fit in"
> because of the higher level thinking.
>
> I just wanted to say that it isn't always exactly like that. My oldest son
> (PG) skipped most of high school and now is a sophomore at a local
> university, studying toward a dual major. Now, although he admits that
> university work is better than high school work, he also feels many days
> that it is also "too easy" and somewhat unsatisfying. And he also
> encounters some of the same problems he did in high school.
> Example: Yesterday, he told me, his Statistics class professor presented a
> problem incorrectly during class. He said he "took her aside" AFTER
> class, and showed her how her problem was incorrect. In fact, he said, "I
> had to work that problem three DIFFERENT ways in order to make her see
> that the way she presented it in class was wrong." She finally graciously
> agreed with him and said she would say something about it in the next
> class.
>
> The good thing about this was that she was willing to admit to an error,
> and to listen to him. The bad thing is that it shows there isn't a whole
> lot he is learning in this class, but many times he ends up teaching the
> teacher. And he isn't even a math major.
>
> So be prepared for your PG kids to also feel somewhat out of place in a
> university setting as well. But at least usually by then they are able to
> deal with it a little better.
>
> To the one that asked about SAT- IQ equivalents. I don't know that I
> would trust any type of conversion of that score. My son (above) who
> scored very high on IQ, did not do nearly as well as expected on SAT,
> because he was so meticulous with each answer that he ended up running out
> of time on several parts, thus lowering his score quite a bit. I didn't
> really see a parrallel between SAT scores and IQ -- SAT just tells you how
> well you test on an SAT.
>
> Tracy
>
Jane..My problem is that we live in a very
tiny rural town (600 people) and nobody supports us in this town...<<
I second the
recommendation to join TAGMAX for support :-) The TAGMAX e-list recently
had a discussion of homeschooling in rural isolation, and there were
several parents on the list in the same boat as you... you may wish to join the
list to read archived posts on this topic, or to make contact with those people
to discuss their strategies further :-)
One of the
conclusions from the discussion on homeschooling in isolation was that there
were more options and resources for gifted homeschooling in small towns
that house a university. If you have the means to travel to a
"university town" (even once a month) you may find more support and
acceptance from the homeschooling community living in that area.
Hope this helps!
-julie
Meredith wrote:
> > I'd like to add that if you have a gifted/special needs child, this is
> > especially true if the school refuses to provide the remediation and/or
> > accommodations that the child needs for the special needs, or
> else refuses to
> > allow a child with special needs access to gifted programming
> (or will only
> > allow access to gifted/honors programming without the required
> support).>>>>
>
> And unfortunately, this happens WAY too often in American schools. Many
> schools deliberately misinterpret the law, and refuse to correct their
> actions without a fight (and sometimes refuse, with a fight. . .)
Kathi wrote:
> Meredith and others, perhaps you could give us some concrete examples?
My dd was refused a 504 and it's accomadations,for documentable CAPD (less
than 1% hearing in a classroom) , dysgraphia and dyslexia. Because she is
functioning 5years plus above the average 12.5 yo in the district she was
disqualified. It is illegal but there are no monies attached to the
non-compliance. We pulled her out of school-for the second time.
Kristine
Cole wrote:
> Elsewhere I've gotten roped into defending the "gifted" label and the "levels
> of giftedness" labels. I know they're necessary for HG+ kids in traditional
> schools--and you're never going to convince me otherwise, so don't try! ;) But
> are they necessary or even important if you're homeschooling? What if you're
> unschooling?>>>>>
Excellent question, Cole.
I think it depends on the situation and the family, but I would add this
caveat.
Sometimes things beyond one's control happen even if you are happily
homeschoooling and intend to keep doing so for the duration. A parent dies
or becomes critically or chronically ill; the primary breadwinner of the
family loses a job; the child's needs change dramatically.
At that point, you may well wish that you had a comprehensive evaluation for
giftedness that provided scores, since you may have to enroll the child in a
public or private school. And if you wait til you need those scores, you are
going to be looking at testing a child who is already in a crisis or grief
situation, and the scores are probably not going to be accurate. So, if you
are considering testing at all, I'd recommend doing it and just keeping the
info handy. Sort of like insurance.
The other thing is that sometimes, as kids grow up into adolescents and
young adults, it does become important for them to know that they are gifted
and to know the level of giftedness. That's the time when they are dealing
with a lot of identity issues. I've actually seen this information be more
valuable to a homeschooling child later in adolescence and early adulthood,
than it was to his/her parents while they were happily homeschooling. But
the tests you can use in late adolescence and early adulthood aren't as
useful for identifying giftedness as some of the tests you can use at
younger ages -- and don't have the ceiling the same test would have at
younger ages, either.
Finally, I would reiterate Meredith's comment of yesterday -- many gifted
kids with disabilities are able to compensate so well their disabilities
stay hidden until they hit really tough academic demands, and then things
may fall apart. An early evaluation may pick up some of these hidden
disabilities at a time when they are most likely to be easily corrected
(such as a vision problem) or compensated for with appropriate strategies.
Trina wrote:
>
> How do you tell when to compact the curriculum and move on, vs. allowing
> some practice for fluency. I know that she understands the basic
> idea of the
> equations she is being asked to solve, but seems easily flustered by such
> things as 6-x=4/5, where she will end up with negative x in an
> intermediate
> step. I KNOW she's more competent in math than she is showing here.
Oh Trina this is a basic always change the operation signs to a plus , or
addition. . In other words try and add all the time. So , for example:
6-x=4/5 is really 6+ (-x)= 4/5 . This was the only way my dd could maintain
the proper sign. You are always adding but changing direction on the number
line. Positive numbers go right and negative numbers go to the left. I also
read "somewhere" that this is preferred my most mathematicians.
Kristine
Our
ds decided last Christmas that he wanted to give public school one last try
before deciding to homeschool through until college. His sister decided
after one week of his return, that she would give it a try as well.
The most interesting thing about the transition was that the school system,
which never accelerates, placed each kid two grades up and basically let
them take whatever logistics allowed. Why? Ds had taken the SAT at
age 10 with impressive results which allowed him to take anything at the middle
school he wanted, part-time. His sister followed suit and both aced the
courses they took, got invited to participate in the summer gifted programs,
etc. When ds decided to come back in full-time, his course work through
Duke, Johns Hopkins and Stanford received credit. This took some
documentation review and is certainly not guaranteed, but I was pleased to say
the least.
We were also able to place each child on an IEP for learning disabilities
(handwriting, speech and language). I was amazed how much the system had
changed in philosophy since we had left five years before (because of poor fit
and failure to meet either exceptionality). Throughout the time we
homeschooled we continued to volunteer with the schools and advocate for children
with special needs. I write this as a note of encouragement to those of
you who may have left a situation in extreme frustration as we had done.
Sometimes systems change.
The kids have both done extremely well socially (much to all our neighbors'/friends'/colleagues'
& miscellaneous strangers' surprise). My two children who are twenty
months apart actually seem to miss each other and compare notes on their day
each day when I pick them up. I can't help but wonder if sibling dynamics
are different for this population. We don't suffer the sibling fussing,
etc. that we hear other parents complain of. Ours tend to seek each other
out for entertainment, support, etc.
I'm the one who seems to miss homeschooling the most. I can't dispose of
any of the materials I had gotten for the coming years. I still follow
TAGMAX with interest. In some ways, our life has many of the activities
that we had begun, only now they qualify as "after schooling".
I'm toying with the idea of forming a children's writing group to provide
training in peer review for essay practice based on the pending changes to the
SAT, ACT and the ongoing need for AP essays, college entrance essays,
etc. My kids know that homeschooling is still an option if the ps
situation falters. I would do it again in a heartbeat.
--
Pam
Yes, but I was surprised she didn't get it. That's why I wondered, in
concert with the failure to write down the problems, if she is
underchallenged, overchallenged, bored, or what! This reminds me of third
grade where the math was way too easy, and she would "lose" the challenge
assignments in the desk. I hoped being home would be better. She's read
Algebra the Easy way more than once, and watched Std. Deviants algebra, so
she knows the basic concepts. Perhaps it's boring to her, but she will have
to develop some fluency.
Hi
Rosemarie:
Don't
discount the value of computer games for teaming issues. Many VT programs use
computer games. Even the eye docs don't condemn them. What they do condemn is
reading smaller font than is developmentally appropriate. There is a reason
that early readers have large type. Unfortunately for our kids they are into
adult fonts when their eyes are not able to focus . A magnifying glass or
reading glasses will take the stain off. However I heartily rec. a full
evaluation by a developmental eye doc.
My
own dd was given an A+ by a ped. ophthalmologist. However she has convergence
issues, teaming issues and a binocularity problems. Again she compensated for
it all ..and brilliantly I might add. The dev. eye doc put her into reading
glasses and poof! her reading ability went from a book a month to a book a day.
She also practices strict eye hygiene.( breaks every 15 minutes where she goes
and looks outside into the far, far distance, etc. btw try and do THAT in
school)
Hand
down though dd really enjoys books on tape. It may have to do with the CAPD
issues or what but she is in 7th heaven when she can listen to a great novel
and knit.
Or
listen to me read a history text while she beads .
I
also find that 2-3 hours a day of reading and typing is pretty intense and more
than that is not effective. Gosh even in the ps they don't do more than 2-3
hours a day of academics and that is spread out over 6 hours.
Kristine
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu]On Behalf Of Cepeda,
Rosemarie
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:36 AM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: RE: visual spatial question
Hi Kathi,
Thanks for doing this
conference and at a very opportune time may I add? Kathi as you know my dd10 is
presently experiencing some rather dramatic visual changes….funny thing, she is
still a reading machine for books she wants to read.
I would appreciate
suggestions that may help her during this period that her eyes aren’t exactly
cooperating? I can see that she doesn’t tolerate more than 2-3 hours of
reading/writing type stuff a day. AS I said before that 2-3 hours is not
including all the reading she regularly does on her own.
She really gets bored
easily and when bored gravitates towards computer games, I really don’t think
they are good for her right now.
Regards,
Rosemarie
Our son (9 yo) has never been able to "fit" into a social setting with kids.
He can play for a little while with kids in the vicinity of his age, but then
gets bored - or tries to structure the play well beyond the desires of other
kids. He enjoys adult conversation, when adults can adjust their expectations
of what a 9 yo "should be". But this isn't really a substitute for friends. Or
is it?
What do the rest of you do for companionship for your gifted children?
Carol L
Trina wrote:
> Yes, but I was surprised she didn't get it. That's why I wondered, in
> concert with the failure to write down the problems, if she is
> underchallenged, overchallenged, bored, or what! This reminds me of third
> grade where the math was way too easy, and she would "lose" the challenge
> assignments in the desk. I hoped being home would be better. She's read
> Algebra the Easy way more than once, and watched Std. Deviants algebra, so
> she knows the basic concepts. Perhaps it's boring to her, but she will have
> to develop some fluency.>>>>
The only basic textbook math program I've ever seen that handled the dreaded
"drill and practice" with a modicum of fun, novelty, and interest to a
gifted child was the old Open Court RealMath program, which has now been
sold to SRA and revised (pleasantly so, most of it they didn't change!) It's
now called "SRA Math Explorations and Applications (and only goes from K-6,
not K-8 like it used to. . .) and it uses a lot of board and number cube
games for a lot of the drill and practice stuff (rather than endless
problems to write out -- there are some of those but the games add a lot!)
Unfortunately it is quite expensive. But I personally think the program has
the best balance of necessary arithmetic plus higher level math including
pre-algebra, of any of the textbook programs out there.
Let's see. My youngest, C10, is very gifted (we don't know how much) and
very LD. When she was originally admitted to sped, we were told that she
might never be able to read. After all, after 3 years in academic preschool
and kindergarten, she could name 4-5 letters. The school still didn't want
to admit her to sped because they had already admitted her to gifted.
Fast-forward to the end of 4th grade. By this time, C10 had learned to read
and was doing 'average' work. In spite of that she was still totally unable
to comprehend what she read without processing time, she can't remember
irregular past tense verbs, she forgot how to ADD (not her math facts, but
how to use them). Her work was average and so she was dismissed from sped.
In that meeting, we planned to look at 504 accomodations later.
I called the 504 coordinator to set up that meeting. She asks me what
medical condition C10 has that requires her to be admitted to 504. I am
puzzled. She 'explains' that 504 is only for physical conditions such as CP
or blindness, etc. I told her that she was badly mistaken; that in fact C10
was already in 504 by virtue of her having been in sped. She refused the
whole idea, said that wasn't in any of the definitions she had as an expert
in the field (this is the school counselor. Expert?). So I printed out and
sent her the regs from the education agency and after much battle, but with
the support of her classroom teacher, C10 has a 504 plan. The 504
coordinator proudly told us that she had reduced the 504 rolls down to 3
kids (out of about 550). This year's teacher is exceptional and one I have
known for years. She is clearly looking at C10's content, not her spelling,
grammar, etc.
next example
N15 is PG, bipolar, CAPD, and dysgraphic. The bipolar was diagnosed just
last year. As some of you know, BP has lots of symptoms in adolescents. In
addition to the mood swings, BP causes highly variable alertness and ability
to tolerate frustration. It looks like a lot of other mental issues -- adhd
, OCD, Oppositional Defiant Disorder. For N15, the biggest results of all
his real diagnoses were he has a hard time attending to uninteresting
material, he cannot do homework (after a full day at school there's nothing
left), his materials are unorganized (if he managed the homework he would be
unable to find it in his backpack) and he needs an outline to work from
because he can't listen and write at the same time.
He has been booted out of all honors classes. "Students at this level
should be able to [fill in all those things above]." I, of course, agreed
and explained that is exactly why N15 is in sped; if he could do all the
things that a child at his level should be able to do, he wouldn't need it.
We got nowhere and of course that meant that the material was even less
interesting, the kids he was with were less able (English classes reading a
chapter a week in a book) and he still couldn't get his homework done or
turned in. He probably has a high D or low C average overall.
The good news with this one is that he has been admitted to an alternative
school that is part of the public school. There are 37 students and 4
teachers on that campus. Most of the material is self-paced and when you
finish a course, you can move right on into another. You can choose how
much work to do at home to meet your goals about when to finish the course.
N15 has pre-calc with 2 other students. These kids started the year having
to go across the street to the regular campus, but then the math teacher
decided to take the test to be certified to teach that class. After
dragging this child to school since kindergarten (we homeschooled for 6
months but he hated it), he now gets up cheerfully and goes to school EARLY.
So this is my good news/bad news about sped and schools. I still have D13
who is a great student, involved in orchestra, drama, art clubs, UIL etc.
who is desperate to homeschool.
Kim
Trina:
You are right she needs more. Jacob's Algebra is very good. DD also enjoyed
Merrill's Algebra II wit Trig. You could always pick up AS math books at
half-price. com.
It reminds me of dd not understanding fractions until she was into complex
fractions. Go get an Algebra II book . Most do a review of Algebra I ( first
one third of the book) and let her fly.She will develop the fluency with the
higher challenges.
Kristine
> Yes, but I was surprised she didn't get it. That's why I wondered, in
> concert with the failure to write down the problems, if she is
> underchallenged, overchallenged, bored, or what! This reminds me of third
> grade where the math was way too easy, and she would "lose" the challenge
> assignments in the desk. I hoped being home would be better. She's read
> Algebra the Easy way more than once, and watched Std. Deviants algebra, so
> she knows the basic concepts. Perhaps it's boring to her, but she
> will have
> to develop some fluency.
>
> Thanks
>
Ø
Trina
Carol wrote:
> Our son (9 yo) has never been able to "fit" into a social setting with kids.
> He can play for a little while with kids in the vicinity of his age, but then
> gets bored - or tries to structure the play well beyond the desires of other
> kids.>>>>>
Leta Hollingworth wrote about this, way back in the 1930s. She said that
highly gifted children often try to complicate the play; in fact, it's a
hallmark of extremely gifted young children.
Carol continued:
<<<<He enjoys adult conversation, when adults can adjust their expectations
> of what a 9 yo "should be". But this isn't really a substitute for friends.
> Or
> is it?>>>>
One thing we know about highly to profoundly gifted children is that they
may well need several sets of peers. Some to play soccer with (physical
peers) some to play complicated games or imaginative play with (gifted to
profoundly gifted kids of similar age) and some to do academics with (could
be children or adults many years older, or it could be intellectual peers of
similar age).
Ø
Kristine
wrote:
<<<<I also find that 2-3 hours a day of reading and typing is pretty
intense and more than that is not effective. Gosh even in the ps they don't do
more than 2-3 hours a day of academics and that is spread out over 6
hours.>>>>>
Kristine is correct. I
remember seeing a surprising (to me) study by the U. S. Dept. of Education a
few years back that showed that once all the time taken out of a typical U. S.
elementary school day for such things as lining up, lunch count, putting
on/taking off coats, attendance, flag saluting, recess, art, music, P. E.,
band, chorus, computer, and the like had been accounted for, on average only 2
hours and 45 minutes were actually focused on the core subjects of math,
science, social studies, reading, and language arts.
And that included both instruction and individual/small group practice.
> > I'd like to add that if you have a gifted/special needs child, this is
> > especially true if the school refuses to provide the remediation and/or
> > accommodations that the child needs for the special needs, or else refuses
to
> > allow a child with special needs access to gifted programming (or will only
> > allow access to gifted/honors programming without the required support).>>>>
>
> And unfortunately, this happens WAY too often in American schools. Many
> schools deliberately misinterpret the law, and refuse to correct their
> actions without a fight (and sometimes refuse, with a fight. . .)
>
> Meredith and others, perhaps you could give us some concrete examples?
Well, I could fill a seminar on that topic alone! But to be brief, many times
gifted kids with learning disabilities can't get remediation because they aren't
doing badly enough - they aren't failing. The problem with this is manyfold -
(1) they will often be unable to compensate well enough when the work gets
harder but remediation is most effective at younger ages, so valuable time gets
lost, (2) they are exhausted by the effort to compensate, which can lead to
depression and/or behavior problems (and then any school failure gets blamed on
emotional issues), (3) they are using so much effort to compensate that they
can't show their giftedness, so that doesn't get addressed.
On the other side, many schools or teachers don't understand that a child can be
gifted/special needs and insist that any child who belongs in their gifted
program needs to be globally gifted, or needs to be able to do the work without
accommodations. Again, while this is a violation of the Americans with
Disabilities Act (ADA), it can be difficult, time-consuming, and sometimes
futile to fight against it - since a hostile teacher can make life miserable for
a kid. This isn't just true for learning differences - I've known of kids with
physical problems such as juvenile arthritis that caused writing to be difficult
who were told that "any child who needs reduced homework load doesn't belong in
Honors Algebra".
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
Just wanted to thank you, Kathi, for a great conference.
I have two twice exceptional boys here, that I am homeschooling. We are
gradually figuring out what works, but boy this is difficult. At least I
can say, that this year is a lot better than last. They seem to be finally
thriving again. I am just picking up ideas from all of the great questions
and responses.
Thanks again for your willingness to share,
Jenny (Presently overwhelmed as both boys are now sick, and we need to
revisit the PANDA issue. <s>)
From: "Kathi Kearney" <kkearney@midcoast.com>
> Actually, I have found in practice that this advice really does work very
> well. It depends on the age of the child, of course, what type of
> information you give them and how specific that information is, but even
> very young children will usually give you a definite response to the idea of
> acceleration one way or the other. I have had kids say, "YES! I want harder
> work and I want to be with my older friends!" I have had other kids say "no,
> please don't make me be with older kids in a class." It's really important
> to listen to them. If the child flat-out nixes acceleration in the form of
> grade skips in school, or early entrance to schooling at any level, there
> are always other options available (though sometimes harder to maneuver).
Of course, some kids will have mixed reactions or doubts that can be talked
through. For example, our son wasn't sure he wanted his grade skip (he was in a
1/2 class and it was clear that he should be moving with the 2nd graders into
3/4 the next year rather than staying in 1/2 a 2nd year). By asking what his
concerns were, it turned out that he was worried that since he wasn't good at
one particular subject that he didn't belong in the next grade. When we asked
"what about math, science, social studies..." and he answer "oh yes, I'm as good
as the 2nd graders in those subjects" we were able to discuss not letting his
one area of weakness hold him back and he agreed that he'd be bored silly if he
stayed in that classroom another year.
Of course, we still ended up having to eventually homeschool him ....
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
Meredith wrote:
<<<<< But to be brief, many
> times
> gifted kids with learning disabilities can't get remediation because they
> aren't
> doing badly enough - they aren't failing. The problem with this is manyfold -
> (1) they will often be unable to compensate well enough when the work gets
> harder but remediation is most effective at younger ages, so valuable time
> gets
> lost, (2) they are exhausted by the effort to compensate, which can lead to
> depression and/or behavior problems (and then any school failure gets blamed
> on
> emotional issues), (3) they are using so much effort to compensate that they
> can't show their giftedness, so that doesn't get addressed.
>
> On the other side, many schools or teachers don't understand that a child can
> be
> gifted/special needs and insist that any child who belongs in their gifted
> program needs to be globally gifted, or needs to be able to do the work
> without
> accommodations. Again, while this is a violation of the Americans with
> Disabilities Act (ADA), it can be difficult, time-consuming, and sometimes
> futile to fight against it - since a hostile teacher can make life miserable
> for
> a kid. This isn't just true for learning differences - I've known of kids
> with
> physical problems such as juvenile arthritis that caused writing to be
> difficult
> who were told that "any child who needs reduced homework load doesn't belong
> in
> Honors Algebra".>>>>>>
Meredith, do you think it would be at all effective for parents of gifted
children with disabilities to testify before Congress during the
reauthorization of IDEA next time, and tell some of these stories, and try
to get language into IDEA that clarifies the issue of gifted kids with
disabilities? (same for ADA and 504?)
Jenny wrote:
> I have two twice exceptional boys here, that I am homeschooling. We are
> gradually figuring out what works, but boy this is difficult. At least I
> can say, that this year is a lot better than last. They seem to be finally
> thriving again. I am just picking up ideas from all of the great questions
> and responses.>>>>>
Sometime I wish I could do one of these online conferences for regular
classroom teachers on what to expect and how to educate and help gifted
children, and have all of you chime in with your expertise!
> Here is the subscription info for the TAGMAX listserv (thanks to Carolyn K.
> for posting it prominently on Hoagies! This is cut and pasted from her
> link):
Another email list that some listmembers may find helpful is GT-Spec-Home, for
families homeschooling gifted/special needs children. You can find info on it
at http://www.gtworld.org/gtspechome.htm and subscribe by sending email to
subscribe-gt-spec-home@gtworld.org
Meredith
GT-Sped-Home listowner
Please ignore this post if you've already read it.
I'm resending it in case Kathi didn't get it.
I notice she's commented several times that she's not receiving all the
posts.
Hi Kathi!
Thanks for being guest expert on Homeschooling the Gifted.
Kathi Kearney wrote:
> Today's discussion will center on homeschooling high school courses -- which
> for many families homeschooling gifted kids means starting LONG before the
> children are of typical high school age!!
I remember when my daughter was 9 years old and had recently left school
to homeschool. You told me that I should look into putting together a
high school transcript for her. At the time I thought, "Oh no, that's a
way down the road!" Well, you were right! Within six months I realized
she was capable of doing high school level work in some subjects. The
following school year she took some high school sciences courses with
high school students, and the next year she started taking a few college
classes, and this year a few more.
So academics are going well, so well that I think it's causing a problem
with physical education.
Last year E started fencing lessons with a local homeschool group. She
did very well, joined the fencing club so that she could fence one or
two evenings a week, and continued with individual lessons weekly. Then
all of a sudden last week she told me she doesn't want to fence anymore.
She says she gets too depressed when she loses. REALLY UPSET and
DEPRESSED! This was news to me. She's usually sounded pretty upbeat when
she came home from fencing. Yes, she lost a bout now and then, but she
won a lot, too. She was doing very well and her fencing instructor had
hoped she would join their competitive team.
Recently, they have been having tournaments on Tuesday nights at the
fencing club where she fences kids on the competitive team. (boys &
girls) I think this is where the problem started. Some of the boys are
several years older, bigger, and nationally ranked.
I don't want to force her to do something she has decided she doesn't
want to do. But I also don't want her to think she has to be one of the
best at everything and win all the time. She says she doesn't need to be
the best, but she can't handle being one of the worst. She's really a
very good fencer, better than she is willing to admit, and losing once
in awhile is just part of the sport.
She's so used to competeing intellectually with people twice her age and
still scoring in the top of the class, that when she loses in a physical
competition to someone her age or only a few years older, she's
devastated. I think this might be a situation of emotional OE's getting
the best of her, but I don't know what to suggest to help her overcome
her negative feelings about herself when she loses to someone else.
Got any advice, Kathi? Anyone else BTDT? All suggestions would be
appreciated!
Thanks,
Mary C
I got this post Mary! But I'm not sure I have a lot of advice for you. . .I
haven't worked with a lot of young athletes (though I *have* worked with a
number of very talented homeschooled ballet dancers. . .)
So I will refer this question to those with more experience.
Carol wrote:
>
> Our son (9 yo) has never been able to "fit" into a social setting
> with kids.
> He can play for a little while with kids in the vicinity of his
> age, but then
> gets bored - or tries to structure the play well beyond the
> desires of other
> kids. He enjoys adult conversation, when adults can adjust their
> expectations
> of what a 9 yo "should be". But this isn't really a substitute
> for friends. Or
> is it?
>
> What do the rest of you do for companionship for your gifted children?
I think the friend thing and the "dreaded writing issues" were the 2
toughest parts of this GT journey.
7-11 was especially hard as opportunities are limited. My dd had 1 friend
who moved to England. She now has several cyber friends that she met through
TAGFAM's MOO and EPGY's Virtual classroom for English. She has no IRL
friends and it breaks my heart. Our recent foray back into the ps realm was
hopefully going to mitigate that issue but alas we pulled the plug on that
experiment week.
We have found Camp Satori in WA an great place for GT kids . It has an
academic component but not an academic focus It is purely for balance. A
safe setting where these kids can interact with peers on a social level.
Camp Satori will be opening a second campus this summer in Victoria B.C.
www.satoricamp.org
There is Camp Yunasa which sounds heavenly but a bit beyond our budget as
are the CTY camps.
When the kids are older they will find friends within their interest areas
also.
Hang in there...these are tough years.
Kristine
Kathi wrote:
>
> Meredith, do you think it would be at all effective for parents of gifted
> children with disabilities to testify before Congress during the
> reauthorization of IDEA next time, and tell some of these stories, and try
> to get language into IDEA that clarifies the issue of gifted kids with
> disabilities? (same for ADA and 504?)
We, actually the dd, are going to testify at our State Level this
spring....
Kristine>
Hi again! I have many questions
as this conference has brought lots to my mind that was not there before! This
is of course good no doubt. So please bear with me.
<<<LOL indeed,
Stephanie -- did it every occur to you that a little girl who is a grade ahead
and "skipping through" the next grade level and doesn't even need to
use a dictionary for the section that it was intended, *might* *already* know
more of the "foundation things" than you are giving her credit for???
.>>>>>>>
No, I never thought she knew things I have not taught her yet. I have not yet
had my dd tested, but I am working on it. So the very idea that you have
brought up that she may be further than 1 year ahead scares the bejebbies out
of me. Just how far is she? How can I tell this? What am I going to do? How do
I know where to place her?
<<<<<<Leslie
writes like she knows my situation. Same subject matter can produce meltdowns
hour to hour within the same day. My dd melts down with easy stuff that she
can't concentrate on or makes stupid mistakes and has no patience to deal with
repitition or things she understand but is unable to do fluently. Something
that she can't deal with producing hysterics can be completed in under five
minutes later - sometimes more like two minutes. How do you deal with an AS
pglet who doesn't like change, doesn't know what studying is, and thinks
something that isn't instantly apparent is hard? I have two children, and
adjusting moment to moment when they aren't able to drive the bus hsing is
hard...Concentration is so poor without meds that they can't pursue even things
that they want to because their minds race. What do you do? You can't dumb down
the material too much? You can't push ahead if they don't master other things.
Sheila >>>>>>>>
This is a post that I am not
sure was addressed yesterday. It poses an even scarier picture for me. It is
the parallel I see with Shelia’s daughter. This happen to us frequently. The
meltdowns, NO patience for repetitiveness, the meltdown and her idea that she cannot
do a problem, yet she has done this same type of problem for years and later in
the day or even an hour later, she will do a whole page of math in 5 minutes or
less. I was reviewing 2nd grade math with her before we found ALEKS
and she was doing a whole week of work in 15-20 minutes. 5 pages.
So how do you deal with a child
like this, whose concentration is poor, is prone to meltdowns, with racing
minds, talking a hundred miles a minute! :o) She thinks everything should come
to her. She doesn’t seem to be motivated to actually “go deep” into a subject.
Even though I *know* she wants to know so much.
I do know that I am going to take much advise from this conference and
encourage more in depth play with her Barbie’s, possibly reenacting different
things I want her to learn. Since she also loves movies, musicals and such, I’m
going to use more video resources. She loves LOTR, but hasn’t read the books.
We try to encourage her to read them, even have us read them to her. She says,
I don’t want to read the book, I want them to play it out for me. So,
more videos it is.
Possibly books on tape, books
with large print. I am going to allow her to record her stories onto tape for
me and I will type them for her. She really has a difficult time with writing.
Although, she has a very creative mind for stories and situations. I think I
would rather develop this and let go of neat handwriting. I will also encourage
different play other than Barbies when other children come to play. Hopefully
this will alleviate aggravation.
Sorry this has gone on so long,
I am just seeing possibly further than I once realized even possible.....
Thanks again for all of your wonderful help!
Stephanie
There is financial aide
available for kids this young not in college? Could you please expand on this?
Again, many
thanks,
Stephanie
Kathi
Kearney <kkearney@midcoast.com> wrote:
Leslie wrote:
> I hope you didn't miss the point that even those of us who do not
homeschool
> probably do some amount of homeschooling anyway. I can't recall an
academic
> year in which J did not have to do some subject area at home because she
> could not be accomodated in her school. This year she is doing math at
home,
> for example.>>>>
Yes, and this brings up another important issue -- that of "part-time"
homeschooling (either officially, or unofficially. . .)
One of the things I have seen more and more of over the years, that *is* a
solution but it's a bothersome trend that this even needs to be done, is
that of families deciding to part-time homeschool in one subject. Many
times, what this involves is the parent purchasing the EPGY tutorial, and
arranging for the child to do it either at home, or at school during math
time, in place of the regular math class.
This is often a good solution for the child. However, it is expensive for
the parent -- which makes it an impossible choice for many children who come
from lower income families.
The same issue surrounds CTY's summer and distance learning programs (or
even simply participation in the talent search programs without going to a
summer program), which is a wonderful program for families who can afford
it. And granted, there is some financial aid for really low income kids.
It's the lower to middle income kids, who *can't* afford the program without
financial aid but whose families earn too much to qualify for much aid, that
can't do it. Same for the distance learning programs that are available
through Johns Hopkins and Northwestern. . .they are a great alternative for
kids whose families can afford them, and often can be used in place of
regular courses at the school, as long as the parent pays for it themselves.
Parents who do not have the money for these courses, or who prefer to do the
tutoring themselves, either have their child do one or more subjects at home
(as Leslie describes above) or somehow are able to get the school to agree
to let the child work independently -- which often involves major and
ongoing advocacy efforts.
Kathi Wrote:
> Finally, I would reiterate Meredith's comment of yesterday -- many gifted
> kids with disabilities are able to compensate so well their disabilities
> stay hidden until they hit really tough academic demands, and then things
> may fall apart. An early evaluation may pick up some of these hidden
> disabilities at a time when they are most likely to be easily corrected
> (such as a vision problem) or compensated for with appropriate strategies.
Oh Kathi :
This is so true. When I look at what my dd was able to compensate for and
still work at 4 years above grade level it is mind boggling. The test scores
on the WISC and the SBLM were red flags. However we didn't realize the
impact of the CAPD on these issues until recently and then only after a
neuro exam by Dr. Eide.
Testing gives you information and information is empowering.
Kristine
Stephanie wrote:
<<<<There is financial aide available for kids this young not in
college? Could you please expand on this? >>>>>
For families who qualify for free or reduced price school lunch, CTY and the
other talent searches reduce or waive the registration fee for the talent
search (which you have to pay IN ADDITION to the test fee itself -- I worked
with many families of gifted kids in rural Maine who were economically
disadvantaged, and they *could not* justify a fee that would pay for shoes for
three kids in the family, just for one kid to take a test. . .)
For students who qualify via the talent search tests and are economically
disadvantaged, there is some scholarship aid for attendance at CTY and other
talent search summer programs. You have to contact the individual talent search
for more information
Oh dear, let me be clear that I was not in the path of Isabel. We just had
a local power outage here in So Cal., but we have been praying for safety
for those affected by the hurricane.
Becca O.
Hi Kathi,
Kathi Kearney wrote:
>
> I got this post Mary! But I'm not sure I have a lot of advice for you. . .I
> haven't worked with a lot of young athletes (though I *have* worked with a
> number of very talented homeschooled ballet dancers. . .)
>
> So I will refer this question to those with more experience.
Thanks for your response.
I think of her as a young scholar, rather than as a young athlete.
I believe the issue has more to do with the fact that she's so gifted
academically, and closer to the norm physically, that she thinks her
performance in sports is unacceptable. Combine the intellectual/physical
disparity with the emotional OE's typical of highly gifted people and
it's hard (maybe impossible) to explain to her that she needn't set the
same goals for herself in sports that she does in academics. (I did
discuss emotional OEs with her.)
Mary
At 11:54 AM 9/20/2003 -0400, Kathi wrote:
> > > I'd like to add that if you have a gifted/special needs child, this is
> > > especially true if the school refuses to provide the remediation and/or
> > > accommodations that the child needs for the special needs, or else
> refuses
>to
> > > allow a child with special needs access to gifted programming (or
> will only
> > > allow access to gifted/honors programming without the required
> support).>>>>
> >
> > And unfortunately, this happens WAY too often in American schools. Many
> > schools deliberately misinterpret the law, and refuse to correct their
> > actions without a fight (and sometimes refuse, with a fight. . .)
> >
> > Meredith and others, perhaps you could give us some concrete examples?
and Meredith Warshaw answers:
>Well, I could fill a seminar on that topic alone!
So Sally, can you get Meredith to host a conference?
-
Joni
I don't know if I'll get back to the computer today, so wanted to take a
bit to say "THANK YOU KATHI" for taking time to do this.
-
- Joni
>>...But
to be brief, many times gifted kids with learning disabilities can't get
remediation because they aren't doing badly enough - they aren't
failing.... On the other side, many schools or teachers don't understand
that a child can be gifted/special needs...<<
I'd like to add
that many in the medical and therapy fields don't realize this situation,
either! I've been on many G/T lists for many years... and I've heard the
stories of way-too-many parents who struggle to solve the puzzle of their
gifted childrens' "hidden" or "masked"
disabilities.
Those with twice
exceptional kids (or those wondering if that is their situation) may get
"the brush-off" from their pediatrician, and may not get
accurate info from their opthomologist, ENT, occuptional therapist, speech
therapist, or testing psychologist. (to mention a few)
Worse than
simple mis-information, parents may get the implication that they are
"over-protective", "enabling",
"over-reacting", and just seeking to make their children
"perfect". :-/ The less stout-hearted parent may
stop pursuing the problems they see...
Are there
any websites that keep regional lists of professionals who are
responsive and knowledgeable to the possibility of being
twice-exceptional? I think such a clearinghouse would be very
helpful...
-julie
-
Mary wrote:
> I think of her as a young scholar, rather than as a young athlete.
> I believe the issue has more to do with the fact that she's so gifted
> academically, and closer to the norm physically, that she thinks her
> performance in sports is unacceptable. Combine the intellectual/physical
> disparity with the emotional OE's typical of highly gifted people and
> it's hard (maybe impossible) to explain to her that she needn't set the
> same goals for herself in sports that she does in academics. (I did
> discuss emotional OEs with her.)>>>>
It might help to discuss asynchronous development with her, Mary. After all,
even if you ARE in a grade much higher than you should be by age,
chronological age DOES have a lot to do with physical development!
Joni wrote:
> So Sally, can you get Meredith to host a conference?>>>>
Here, here!!!! Let's have Meredith do an e-conference on twice-exceptional
gifted kids!
Oh I forgot to add. When dd decided to go back to school last spring. I was
able to place her in the APP program for the upper 1% with absolutely no
fanfare or effort BECAUSE I had all the testing/scores/evaluations in
place. In fact we had missed all cutoffs and they created a spot for her.
Another instance where I was glad we had the test portfolio.
I have also used the test scores to gain admittance to otherwise age
segregated classes as "proof" of ability. Again this stuff comes in handy
when they are a little older and are seeking different venues and
opportunities.
Kristine
you are very welcome, Joni! :-)
on 9/20/03 10:08 AM, Joni at wrote:
> I don't know if I'll get back to the computer today, so wanted to take a
> bit to say "THANK YOU KATHI" for taking time to do this.
>
From: "Joni" <lawver@direcway.com>
> So Sally, can you get Meredith to host a conference?
Actually, I am doing one in January (yes, Sally, I know I owe you dates!)
M
The Texas Instrument 83 and numbers in the series above 83 are programmable
calculators, and are allowed for use during SATS. TI83s usually cost about
$85.00 in the stores; I got them a bit cheaper through ebay (though it's
more time consuming). The silvers are about $20 more, and I didn't know
what the advantage was, so I didn't try for those. But they have a MUCH
greater memory capacity, so even though I had to buy two (ouch!), I
probably would've opted to spring for the silvers. There are lots of
non-math programs (French and other languages, ebooks, games...),as well as
advanced math programs, that can be downloaded for free from the internet
from the TI website. You can buy a cable to download from the computer,
and/or a cable to download between calculators.
--- Bridget
To complicate things, each child's personality and situation is so
different. Some have more access to a variety of friends (like my son) than
others because of geographical location.
We can echo Kathi's description of having friends for different purposes.
My pg son is extroverted and, at this moment, has enough companionship
because he draws them from all the different activities. He has chess pals
(though he doesn't see them outside of chess club), church friends (his
deepest friendships), baseball/sports friends, violin friends, and old
family friends. Note that he does not have intellectually based friendships
because it really is almost impossible. He is fortunate to know at least
1-2 other boys who are pg but they don't necessarily share interests so they
don't spend much time together. He saves his intellectual conversations for
teens and adults and he's ok with that. I think he somehow figured out that
most children don't "get" him so he adjusts and plays at their level and
doesn't try to teach them anymore!
Becca O.
Please visit
http://orion.neiu.edu/~ourgift/pages/Future_Conferences.htm
You will see a few of those who have agreed to do a future conference.
Yes, Meredith is already scheduled for Jan - 2004:)))
In addition, from the last conference there is a group working on the topic
The Politics of Intelligence. I believe that is tentatively scheduled for next
March:)
For those of you involved, maybe you can let me know some of your plans and
progress;)
In addition, Joni can you contact me offline
Thanks,
Sally_L
> Joni wrote:
>
> > So Sally, can you get Meredith to host a conference?>>>>
>
> Here, here!!!! Let's have Meredith do an e-conference on twice-exceptional
> gifted kids!
>
Kathi Kearney wrote:
>
> It might help to discuss asynchronous development with her, Mary. After all,
> even if you ARE in a grade much higher than you should be by age,
> chronological age DOES have a lot to do with physical development!
Thanks Kathi, it's worth a try!
Mary
Several states
require homeschoolers to submit annual standardized testing results for each
child... Do you have any recommendation as to which (if any) of these
tests can provide *meaningful* info to the families of gifted
homeschoolers?
I know that some
states have an actual list of "authorized" choices... but others
are open to substututions, or leave it up to the parents to decide.
-julie
"1. When do we know we've finished a grade level?"
Sorry to keep bringing this up, but I still don't have a good grasp on how
folks are figuring out what grade levels their kids are working at and when
it is time to move to the next level. Sorry to be so dense about this!
Our kids are GT/LD and so we are finding it works best to be creative with
most learning methods and materials. I know they ARE learning, but have no
idea how it correlates to grade levels. I'm also concerned that we may miss
important areas because we didn't know something was a typical third-grade
or fourth-grade topic.
We're generally following The Well-Trained Mind and find it's wonderful for
history, literature, and a foreign language (doing Latin this year and it'a
been wonderful). We're stunned by the math and science choices though (but
we have mathy kids), and so tend to pull together our own materials for
that -- often involving working with mentors in those areas, so while it is
in-depth and hands-on, it is not often broad or general.
We want to make sure that our kids have a firm grasp of foundational skills
and knowledge, but aren't finding a good resource that lists specific skills
appropriate for students to master at each grade level. Our state and county
guidelines are in a language we do not understand.
We've been using the "Typical Course of Study" guidelines from the World
Book site ( http://www2.worldbook.com/parents/course_study_index.asp ),
which are wonderful because we can understand them. But are they accurate?
Is there a better guide? Would love to hear how other parents and
professionals determine grade-level and grade promotions.
Thanks again! Trish
Mary,
Some additional thoughts to share:)
That passion you may be observing may be that which is a core ingredient for
aspiring athletes to become champions i.e. can be at many skill levels of
recreational up to and through high school - HS - which demands grouping by
age - weight and even gender then onto college and then perhaps professional
or amateur and future Olympians. There are many stories about the will to
improve and beating their own personal best. Finding the balance between what
is intensely a good motivator versus that which due to too much mental beating
oneself up over past performance preventing future successful performance is
something very challenging to develop.
I believe last month's issue of Sports Illustrated had on their front page
verbage about the lineman being the most intelligent on a football team.
Many college scholars and champions in athletic have majors in very academic
fields ie. biophysics, etc.
Perhaps your view that she is only a scholar and not really an athlete may be
a viewpoint which is too Hmmmmm she is one or the other, but difficult to
exist in the same little person?
Do you have information that she is athletically at "just" the level of her
agemates? Do you have physical testing which indicates such? Perhaps she is
performing really at a higher age level and is really not at the same range of
typical X year old skills - This information, if possible to gather, may shed
some light on where she is at and what realistic goals to have in place to
develop where does she want to go? Even if she is testing in physical skill
ranges average for her age or maybe even below her age - her emotional and
mental skills in managing her physical development - setting goals so she can
achieve what "she" wants to achieve is very key in a competitive athlete
world, but also very important IMHO even if she wants to compete in a
recreational level due to other interests and time commitments.
I know many conversations do comparisons of jocks versus brainiacs i.e. along
there are BIG budgets for football and not music or arts or debate, etc but
there are many in this world who are not one or the other, but are both at
various levels :) Yes, asynchronous growth is important to understand.
Maybe some of the above thoughts may be helpful or not. Just a few thoughts
Sally
> Kathi Kearney wrote:
> >
> > It might help to discuss asynchronous development with her, Mary. After all,
> > even if you ARE in a grade much higher than you should be by age,
> > chronological age DOES have a lot to do with physical development!
>
> Thanks Kathi, it's worth a try!
>
> Mary
> > I have two twice exceptional boys here, that I am homeschooling. We are
> > gradually figuring out what works, but boy this is difficult. At least
I
> > can say, that this year is a lot better than last. They seem to be
finally
> > thriving again.
Kathi,
I realized that I should put my thriving statement in context, as at times,
when I am wading through the muddy waters, ready to sink, to hear "the
children are thriving" phrase, can really make me feel happy for them but
personally, like a failure.
So to clarify, one child came one from third grade with a nervous breakdown,
undiagnosed lds as well as undiagnosed pg. That old giftedness masks the
learning disability and vice versa issue. He was not reading at all,
writing, or speaking, when I got him back from private school. He had been.
Depression was severe. I need to add that this was also 4 months after
9/11. The other had many SI and physical issues as well as hyperacusis
(volume x10). To work around both boys with different issues, including
need for vision therapy, and extreme grade acceleration, has been a
daunting task, to say the least. They also are not readers, and only learn
through visual, not even audio. So it's educational TV and videos for us.
I have to use mostly CD curriculum for core subjects as I just can't pull
all of this together without it. So whether it is the vision therapy, or
just the emotional growth spurt, or finally reaching a level where he feels
that he is learning something, one child is finally finding challenge, at
least with Algebra. I have also separated all the language issues of
spelling, grammar, and hadwriting, so they don't interfere with each other.
He says he is learning for the first time in his life. We are still trying
to pull all of this together for the younger one, but he seems to be moving
forward, too. Just needs me to be with him constantly, and only whisper. My
thriving, might be some else's basket of problems.
So, for anyone that is trying to keep your nose above water, don't give up.
There is hope. Get on some of these gifted lists. Without it, and my
husband agrees here, we would be lost. Now if I could just figure out how to
increase their knowledge of literature through the visual style. Books on
video rather than tape, that are quality?
> Sometime I wish I could do one of these online conferences for regular
> classroom teachers on what to expect and how to educate and help gifted
> children, and have all of you chime in with your expertise!
If you have the time, it would be a wonderful project! I know some that
might be interested.
Thanks again for all your time, Kathi.
Jenny
>
Hi,
Just a little reminder to be sure to snip your posts, i.e. only post that
which you are directly responding to. There are many who are receiving this in
digest form and they appreciate this courtesy:)
Sally
Conference-Coordinator
Mary,
You're welcome and good luck!
I am actually facing a somewhat similar dilemma. My younger (almost 10yo
dd) is taking algebra through a homeschool group. The teacher is nice, but
he is a rambler and a repeat-what-is-on-the page retired guy. I originally
signed up both of my kids, but 8yo ds was having 'school block' at the
beginning of this year, and the class was at it's size limit anyway, so he
never really started.
My problem: dd seems to 'get' the material, EXCEPT during and right after
the once-weekly class. I wanted her to take the class to show her that she
COULD do higher math (she considered math her 'weakness' because she wasn't
at the top of the class's timed tests in arithmetic, when she was in school
settings grades 1-3). Algebra is definitely in her 'zone of proximal
development' (something she doesn't already know, and is a challenge, but
not too hard for her). But both the teacher and the book (yikes!) are a
poor fit for her.
I know if she drops the class she will feel like she failed, even if she
continues to do algebra at home. I worried all summer about whether she
would feel overwhelmed by the age difference in the class, and other
people's reactions to her taking algebra at her age. I didn't worry about
the work- I knew she could do it. I didn't worry about the class/ teacher
dynamics, and I guess I should have! It doesn't help that her brother isn't
taking the class; the camaraderie of the shared experience isn't there for
her to fall back on.
We'll probably keep going unless she really expresses a desire to quit, but
I worry about the effect of this rather disheartening experience.
--- Bridget
>
> Bridget wrote:
> > I think I would have her continue (if you allow her to quit, she will
> > likely avoid similar activities in the future,
>> Mary:
> Thanks for all your creative suggestions. She has been writing a lot
> lately. Maybe I can get her to put her feelings in writing so I'll
> understand the root of the issue more clearly.
Julie Knapp wrote:
> >>...But to be brief, many times gifted kids with learning
> disabilities can't get remediation because they aren't doing badly
> enough - they aren't failing.... On the other side, many schools or
> teachers don't understand that a child can be gifted/special needs...<<
>
> I'd like to add that many in the medical and therapy fields don't
> realize this situation, either! I've been on many G/T lists for many
> years... and I've heard the stories of way-too-many parents who
> struggle to solve the puzzle of their gifted childrens' "hidden" or
> "masked" disabilities.
>
> Those with twice exceptional kids (or those wondering if that is their
> situation) may get "the brush-off" from their pediatrician, and may
> not get accurate info from their opthomologist, ENT, occuptional
> therapist, speech therapist, or testing psychologist. (to mention a few)
This is the story of my kids' early childhoods... and they're only 7yo
and 4yo! At one point, I asked our pediatrician if she thought it was
worth considering the possibility of AS in my 7yo dd, and her response
was that since dd could make eye contact and spoke well, she couldn't
possibly have AS. Well, it turns out she doesn't -- she has a list of
acronyms (CAPD, SID, etc) -- but she looks enough like AS that the
director of the relevant program at Stanford thought she did.
Similarly, she was tested at reading at a 14yo level, but it turns out
that she is compensating for all sorts of vision and visual perception
issues that are being helped by vision therapy. I won't go on and on,
but to address the original point, we did take her to the school
district for testing, and they did the WIAT. She had a 30+ point spread,
but since her lower number was in the gifted range, they informed us
they could not help her and we should continue homeschooling since she
was obviously doing fine at that. Thank goodness for the GDC, where she
was assessed later, and where they could *see* when she was using
compensation strategies to score higher than she otherwise would have in
some areas!
Corin
Cole M. wrote:
>Elsewhere I've gotten roped into defending the "gifted" label and the "levels
of giftedness" labels. I know they're necessary for HG+ kids in traditional
schools--and you're never going to convince me otherwise, so don't try! ;) But
are they necessary or even important if you're homeschooling? What if you're
unschooling?
>
Cole, I'm not Kathi (nobody else could be :-) ) but ime the testing we
had done at the GDC for my dd was a tremendous help. I have a much
better grasp on how she learns, what kinds of things won't work, and so
on. I also learned (in retrospect) a lot about myself and why school was
such a nightmare for me. I think that, unless everything is going
perfectly and there is no chance of otherwise, it can be a very good
thing to get testing down, and get it down right.
Just my opinion, of which I seem to have possibly too many this morning ...
Corin
> Several states require homeschoolers to submit annual standardized
> testing results for each child... Do you have any recommendation as
> to which (if any) of these tests can provide *meaningful* info to the
> families of gifted homeschoolers?
Hi Julie,
We are in Massachusetts and chose to submit standardized testing results
to the school this year. We used the California Achievement Test (CAT),
which took just over an hour to administrate, and provided the short<g>,
one page summary to the school. The information was 'meaningful' to
the school because it provided a single percentile score to the school
which proved the kids were working at their 'legal' grade level.
For ourselves, we have had the Woodcock - Johnson (achievement) tests
given periodically so we can see the real range of grade levels and
progressions. We used the results as a starting point for curriculum
levels and it was very interesting to see that our youngest has
strengths in areas we did not expect.
Tonya
Please read the following list of anonymous posts.
**************************************
First, I would like to know how much it can cost for primary.
My child is gifted, visual learner and with learning disabilities.
Second, if it is better to try to group children in homeschooling or
not, with friends doing the same for example ?
*********************************
dear kathy,
while i can understand that home schooling helps the child for the now. It has
to negative effects in general.
I was wondering if you had any long term strategies to prevent the following
situations, on the cause and effects of home schooling.
1. It teaches the children that its not ok to be a little bored, or a little
frustrated, which is part of life in general, and that the pattern is not
repeated later on in life. Which just increases the depression, self harm, and
non coping skills later on in life, and its probably more destructive to the
gifted person in general in the long term. Road rage, theft, murder, drugs,
alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, all have psychological triggers in the
areas of impatient.
2. When you take a child out of school into home schooling, the other
students, school and the education system suffer, as well as the gifted
community suffer. Because the school no longer has to deal with the gifted
child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under the table because they
dont have to deal with it. It reduces Gifted lobbying and political evidence
because there numbers are too low to justify any change to the current system,
because with out the evidence of the numbers and needs of a gifted segment of
the population being recognized being within the system - then the system has
no basis from which to change. And finally the other class mates, and teachers
lose the benefit of knowing a gifted person, who could inspire them, teach
them, and by example help make the school environment a much better place by
example, by there inspiration and extended mental ability - teach others by
demonstration and example.
A famous trade unionist in a Teachers Union once said - We do not strike for
ourselves, we do not want to lose pay or benefits, we love our job. We strike
for those that come afterwards.
In isolated areas and special medical conditions I can understand home
schooling, but in urban areas and areas of high resource and population is not
the selfishness of the here and now destructive to the gifted person and the
gifted community in the long term.
My first question is, how do you teach a child its ok and even good to be
bored, frustrated, and at times lonely and limited, before it triggers anti-
social behavior of the I Want it Now syndrome ?
I guess my 2nd question is how do you lobby for resources, when you hide the
problem and reject society in such a way, that society in general does not
decide to reject you back. ( ie you do it to use so we do it back to you) ?
How do you prove that the invisible exists and needs funding, resourses ?
****************************************
Hi Kathi,
I am always fearful that my efforts to make things better in the classroom for
my child may backfire and recognizing the teacher is also human and may take
things out on my child - directly or indirectly, consciencously or not-
consciencely - what have other parents done if this happens?
My child is like a microscope in the emotional area and even though the words
from the teacher may be totally fine - it is the feeling which exists that my
child can easily pick up on i.e. it just feels like the teacher resents me
because you talked to him/her about my need for different work. Or why does
the teacher feel badly when I know more about a subject than he or she does,
yet the teacher feels happy when I don't know something. How can I talk to the
teacher about such. i.e. your ambievelance or different emotions are picked up
very readily by my child - how can my child and you as his/her teacher resolve
the emotional parts in a safe setting?
Any teachers who can help me know, what would be most appreciated from
receiving such information about a child in the elementary school age group
from a parent?
*************************************************
Dear Kathi,
Any suggestions when a spouse wants to homeschool, but the other spouse
doesn't?
Jenny wrote:
> Now if I could just figure out how to
> increase their knowledge of literature through the visual style. Books on
> video rather than tape, that are quality?>>>
Jenny, I just saw a fabulous curriculum guide at the Homeschoolers of Maine
bookstore that does exactly this!!
It's called "Movies as Literature" by Kathryn Stout. Here's a link to her
page that discusses it:
http://www.designastudy.com/products/movies.html
She also has a couple of online articles about this approach:
http://www.designastudy.com/teaching/tips-0101.html
http://www.designastudy.com/teaching/tips-0201.html
Don't forget that there are also some *wonderful* translations of books onto
video. . .the Anne of Green Gables movies done on PBS, and the British
version of the C. S. Lewis books, come to mind immediately.
Julie wrote:
<<<<<Several states require homeschoolers to submit
annual standardized testing results for each child... Do you have any
recommendation as to which (if any) of these tests can provide *meaningful*
info to the families of gifted homeschoolers?
I know that some states have an actual list of "authorized"
choices... but others are open to substututions, or leave it up to the parents
to decide.>>>>
Well, Julie, my answer might be different if you hadn't added that little word
"meaningful"!!!
I guess I'll give you both my comments, anyway.
If you want "meaningful" results -- in other words, results that let
you know approximately the actual grade levels at which your child is
functioning in various areas, and testing which will help with academic
planning -- your best bet is an individually administered achievement test,
such as the Woodcock-Johnson III Tests of Achievement (WJ-III), the Wechsler
Individual Achievement Test (WIAT-II), the Peabody Individual Achievement Test
(PIAT-III) or the Kaufman Test of Educational Achievement (K-TEA). All of these
tests have to be given by a trained examiner. In most states, a certified
teacher who has taken training to give these types of tests, a special ed.
teacher, a psychological examiner, an educational diagnostician, or a licensed
psychologist may give individual achievement tests (but it's always wise to
check your state's law).
These tests have some real benefits over group achievement tests (such as the
Iowa, Stanford, Metropolitan, California, or Terra Nova). First of all they are
individually administered, and take much less time (approximately an hour and a
half for a gifted child, vs. a number of timed sections that can take up to two
very full days for some of the group tests).
Secondly, the ceilings are MUCH higher on individual tests. On a group test
such as the Iowa or Stanford, most of the questions available are within only,
at best, a three year grade range to the "targeted" grade of
the test, and there are very few items at either the very high or very low
levels. Thus, gifted children may score in the 98th or 99th percentile on these
tests, but you don't know how much more they might have been able to do if
there were harder items (this is the rationale for the out-of-level talent
search tests, such as the PLUS or the SAT-I, for students who score in the 98th
and 99th percentiles on an in-grade achievement test). Just for
comparison, the Woodcock-Johnson III has questions that cover a grade level
range -- and norms -- from preschool through graduate school, making it
particularly useful with gifted populations (the other individual achievement
tests have a K-12 grade range).
The grade equivalent scores gotten on an individual test actually more clearly
reflect the approximate grade level at which a gifted child is working, since
the child has been given, and passed, actual items at that grade level for
average older children. "Grade equivalents" on group achievement
tests don't mean the same thing as they do on an individual achievement test.
On a group achievement test, the grade equivalent score on a 5th grade test of,
say, 10th grade 3rd month, means that the *average 10th grader*, if given the
*5th grade achievement test* would get as many right as your child did! (Not a
very helpful comparison).
Third, group achievement tests are standardized on *groups* of children in a
classroom. Individual achievement tests have been standardized and normed for a
one-on-one administration. Since most homeschooled kids are tutored in a
one-on-one situation, you could say that in this case, the standardization
process for the individual test matches better the teaching situation the child
is accustomed to. (Many homeschoolers do take group achievement tests --
sometimes individually, sometimes in groups -- and do very well on them. Most
studies over the past 20 years, no matter who has done the study, show
homeschoolers averaging somewhere in the 80th to 85th percentiles on group
achievement tests. The largest study ever done, of 20,700 homeschoolers who
took the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, included 23% of individuals who were
enrolled in one or more grades higher than their chronological age would
predict, but they were given the test for the accelerated grade they were
enrolled in -- thus it was even harder to get that high score!)
Those are all the good reasons to use an individual achievement test.
Now there are some political considerations.
If you happen to live in one of the few states where local school boards are in
the business of "approving" your homeschooling program (MA, RI,
and UT), and neither your state law nor your local school board policy is
clear-cut enough, and testing is required, you may be FAR better off, if you
have a gifted child, to have the child take the group achievement test that is appropriate
for their chronological age/grade level. This is because some school boards in
these states are not above deciding to try to "add" requirements as a
condition of approval -- one of which might be, if your child scored several
grade levels higher on an individual achievement test than might be expected
for his/her age, that the school board would try to require the child to keep
having to show a year's progress from last year's scores, the next year. (For
all kinds of reasons, including both developmental and test construction/test
ceiling ones, this may not be possible for gifted kids at all age and grade
levels on all tests).
I know there are several individuals attending this conference who have had to
deal with exactly this issue, or similar ones, with their school boards in
"approval" states, and I'm inviting them to chime in as to why they
made the decisions they did about testing.
One caution about achievement testing in general -- although usually gifted
children score very high on achievement tests as long as they do not have a
disability that interferes with their performance (such as a learning
disability or a processing speed disability or a physical disability than
inhibits motor speed or a vision issue), it is just *one* snapshot on *one* (or
at the most, two or three) days. I'm always reluctant to have a family's entire
evaluation of their whole homeschooling program rest on that (just as I am very
reluctant to have the decision about whether a child in public school is
promoted to the next grade based solely on one test -- as several states are
doing now at certain grade levels).
>>... Sometime I wish I could do one of these online
conferences for
regular classroom teachers on what to expect and how to educate and help
gifted children, and have all of you chime in with your expertise!...
If you have the time, it would be a wonderful project! I know some
that might be interested....<<
Hmmm interesting
idea... but I'm not sure much could be accomplished over the gnashing of teeth and
flying fur... <grin> Just kidding - I'm sure most of us could
be "civil" ;-) -julie
Anonymous #1 wrote:
> First, I would like to know how much it can cost for primary.
> My child is gifted, visual learner and with learning disabilities.>>>>
Homeschoolers spend anywhere from $150 to well over $3000 per child per
year, depending on where they live, what outside tutorials may be involved,
and what they select for curriculum materials. I believe I read a national
figure that the average amount per child per homeschooling family is about
$500 per year for curriculum materials and/or courses/tutorials. (I can't
remember which study that came from -- it might have been the Rudner study
of 20,700 homeschoolers).
Of course, with the internet, if you have an internet connection, is IS
possible to homeschool your child nearly for free (except for the cost of
your internet connection). There is an incredible number of very high
quality educational materials out there for free on the internet.
Anonymous #1 continued:
> Second, if it is better to try to group children in homeschooling or
> not, with friends doing the same for example ?>>>>>
I think this is highly dependent on your individual situation, your child,
his/her learning style, what "groupings" may be possible, how much travel is
required, and the like. There is NO "one best way" to homeschool -- just as
there is not "one best way" to run a public or private school curriculum
(even if legislators and George W. Bush seem to think otherwise sometimes!!)
Children are just too diverse. What you do need to do is to figure out what
works best for your child and your family.
Anonymous #4 wrote:
> Any suggestions when a spouse wants to homeschool, but the other spouse
> doesn't? >>>>
Ooooohhhh, really really tough question.
I always advise married parents who disagree on whether or not to
homeschool, that they MUST work out an agreement and solution together, and
come to an agreement between themselves first. I don't advise them to begin
homeschooling until they have done this. They MUST be united on this. If you
are married, your marriage relationship has to come first, because it is the
bedrock on which the rest of everything else in the family rests.
Homeschooling can be very intense on relationships, and it's critical that
parents be as united as possible.
If you have had the experience of having to negotiate this issue with a
spouse and come to an agreement (either to homeschool or not to
homeschool!), please feel free to post your experience here if you are
willing.
The purpose of my listserv is to invite all to experience a safe harbor for
those interested in helping the gifted/2X/3X from
teachers,administrators,psychologists, the gifted themselves.
I believe much could be accomplished - who else do we want to work with, but
with those who can get it/ does get it/ want to get it about those whom we
want to help - gifted - moderately to profoundly with lds or no lds or
physical issues, etc.
I will get to Anonymous Posts #2 and #3 a little later this afternoon!
Trish
Smith <trish@qx.net> wrote:
We've been using
the "Typical Course of Study" guidelines from the
World Book site ( http://www2.worldbook.com/parents/course_study_index.asp
),
which are wonderful because we can understand them. But are they
accurate? Is there a better guide? Would love to hear how other parents and
professionals determine grade-level and grade promotions....<<
We have used the
World Book website you cited, as well as leafing thru various books with titles
like "What your __ Grader should know" (though I found this series to
be a bit "trivia-oriented" (IMHO), or Comprehensive Curriculum of
Basic Skills , Grade __".
We've also
visited the websites of various state school diistricts - some have excellent
"scope and sequences" or "educational outcomes"
listed...
The Woodcock -
Johnson Achievement Battery does an excellent job... but we find it too
expensive to do every year. There is an associated "mini
battery" but it is quite brief in content... and may be, as a result, not
as accurate as some families need.
The main trouble
that we've (personally) run into with grade-level estimations, though, arises
from the actual concept of "standard scope and
sequence".... If my child doesn't know a particular fact about
a topic - he hasn't (technically) completed that grade-level, yet.
But this doesn't
take into account the knowledge he *does* have on the topic - which may, in
reality, be part of the scope and sequence for much higher grade
levels.
It kind of comes
down to what I see as a "trivia mentality" present in the public
school system, such as: " all first graders learn about Egyptian
mummies " ... so the question follows: "if your child didn't learn
about this topic, is he working at grade-level?"
-julie
List Members,
I am having to do the dreaded - "Lets start wrapping up the conference post".
I am thoroughly enjoying all of the posts and the tremendous actitivity on the
list - even on a Saturday:)
Others have already begun to THANK our guest expert - Kathi Kearney, please
take the time to do so as soon as possible before I close the conference.
Kathi - as usual I am highly impressed!!! As your conference coordinator, I am
thrilled to have had this opportunity to share this online conference
experience with you. I am savoring the last hours of this three day conference
filled with extremely valuable information.
List members - I am so thrilled to have met many of you online - now over 180
members. WOW!!!
So everybody, please start wrapping up with your final questions, thoughts,
and anything else you would like to share.
Kindest regards,
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
I have to go take a break for a couple of hours, so *I* am not wrapping up
just yet! :-)
I will return and try to answer all remaining questions that I receive in
the meantime! (plus several unanswered posts)
Is it okay for 'the rest of us' to respond to the
anonymous posts? If so, I would like to respond to
anon. #2. I'll admit up front that I was upset by
some of what #2 implied in his/her questions, but this
is intended as an honest and polite response:
Anon. #2, do you have research or statistics to
support your claim that homeschooling fosters
impatience, leading to road rage, etc. in the future?
In my experience, rude behavior is not limited to the
realm of either homeschooling or public schooling.
I will try to be brief:
I did not remove my child from school out of
selfishness -- rather, it was out of desperation. My
child was miserable, angry, depressed, unmotivated,
etc. I did not *want* to abandon my own career to do
this, I had to do it for the health and well-being of
my child.
Moreover -- I think endless boredom, frustration,
bullying, etc. in childhood is much more likely to
lead to a depressed and unhappy adult. Such a child
learns that his or her gifts are not valued by society
-- much more valuable is the ability to fit in and sit
still. I honestly believe that I am doing a service
to my child as well as to society by helping him
become a happy, productive, well-adjusted adult.
Beyond that: Nobody would benefit from putting him
back in the classroom. He would be hopelessly
depressed. He would be so disruptive that I fully
expect the entire educational process, such as it is,
would grind to a halt for the entire class. Plus, my
personal career aspirations would once again be
derailed as I would be required to devote myself
full-time to repairing the school situation. So,
right there, by putting *one* person who does not
belong there back in school, society loses the
positive contributions of *two or three* people (as dh
would certainly begin missing time at work as well, as
we waded through the quagmire); this gifted child did
not spring from a cabbage leaf, after all. :-)
I learned next to nothing in school. Most of my time
in elementary school was spent either finding ways to
occupy myself quietly (usually by reading the same
book over and over again), cleaning the room, or
teaching other students. Hmm -- it's funny how some
would argue now that I am not qualified to teach my
children b/c I do not have a teaching certificate, yet
as a six-year-old I was fully qualified in the eyes of
my teacher to teach my peers how to read! My children
deserve to have an education, they do not owe it to
society to spend their own childhoods trying to bring
other children 'up to speed'.
I tried to work within the system. My efforts failed.
I have, repeatedly, begged 'the system' for help;
repeatedly, I have been told that we do not deserve
help from the system. Why, then, should I feel any
obligation to the system? Why should I put my kids
back into a system that has already announced that it
has no interest in meeting their needs? What will my
boys learn from being sent to school in order that
they may empty wastebaskets, organize papers, sharpen
pencils, etc.? What I learned from that was that my
skils are best suited for menial labor.
I would love to put my experiences to work for the
benefit of other gifted children and their families.
I think I, as well as the many other like-minded
parents I have met on-line, could make a real
difference. Before I can do that, though, I need to
tend to the needs of my own children -- and I am not
the least bit apologetic about that.
SarahG -- who might just have more opinions than Corin
this morning. :-) If I should not have responded to
this post, I apologize.
--- Sally_L@comcast.net wrote:
> Please read the following list of anonymous posts.
> *********************************
> dear kathy,
>
> while i can understand that home schooling helps the
> child for the now. It has
> to negative effects in general.
>
> I was wondering if you had any long term strategies
> to prevent the following
> situations, on the cause and effects of home
> schooling.
>
> 1. It teaches the children that its not ok to be a
> little bored, or a little
> frustrated, which is part of life in general, and
> that the pattern is not
> repeated later on in life. Which just increases the
> depression, self harm, and
> non coping skills later on in life, and its probably
> more destructive to the
> gifted person in general in the long term. Road
> rage, theft, murder, drugs,
> alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, all have
> psychological triggers in the
> areas of impatient.
>
> 2. When you take a child out of school into home
> schooling, the other
> students, school and the education system suffer, as
> well as the gifted
> community suffer.
SarahG wrote:
> Is it okay for 'the rest of us' to respond to the
> anonymous posts?>>>>
It is my understanding that all posts are open for discussion by all,
whether they are anonymous or not.
Thanks so much
for your time and energy, Kathi! You have been so helpful and
informative... and it is so nice to have this forum for focused intelligent
discussion on topics related to gifted children! I find myself missing
the "data flow" when these on-line conferences are over - I look
forward to the future scheduled conferences! And thanks, especially, to
Sally for making all this possible! It is truly a wonderful resource! :-)
-julie
dear kathy,
while i can understand that home schooling helps the child for the now. It has
to negative effects in general.
>
This is difficult for me to digest- I personally know quite a few adults who
grew up homeschooling- they are incredible adults.
>
also the teens that I knew as when I was a teen that were problematic were all
public school students( I did group therapy for years as a teen due to my
inablity to conform to the public school system- alas when I was allowed to leave
public school many issues my parents had instantly disappeared.)
.
1. It teaches the children that its not ok to be a little bored, or a little
frustrated, which is part of life in general, and that the pattern is not
repeated later on in life. Which just increases the depression, self harm, and
non coping skills later on in life, and its probably more destructive to the
gifted person in general in the long term. Road rage, theft, murder, drugs,
alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, all have psychological triggers in the
areas of impatient.
>
Some of what you said above is very possibly true- but I can honestly say that
my home school children have had to learn patience in many ways outside of
academics- for instance- I have to do errands- they hate it but they have had
to learn to be patient. I often spend large periods of time visiting with
people they have no interest in yet they have had to learn to be politely
patient. We visit family that bore them to tears for days at a
time- and here again I expect them to be patient... I could proably provide
examples all day-but I won't. As an adult I am able to use my free time
to seek knowledge. I would not dream of telling myself that I am not
allowed to learn about asthma right now when my child is affected just because
my neighbors have no interest in learning about asthma- I would think most
would think that ridiculous-
2. When you take a child out of school into home schooling, the other
students, school and the education system suffer, as well as the gifted
community suffer. Because the school no longer has to deal with the
gifted
child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under the table because they
dont have to deal with it. It reduces Gifted lobbying and political evidence
because there numbers are too low to justify any change to the current system,
because with out the evidence of the numbers and needs of a gifted segment of
the population being recognized being within the system - then the system has
no basis from which to change. And finally the other class mates, and teachers
lose the benefit of knowing a gifted person, who could inspire them, teach
them, and by example help make the school environment a much better place by
example, by there inspiration and extended mental ability - teach others by
demonstration and example.
>
I spent two years trying to make the school system at least compromise to
accomodate my children- I as a parent have a responsiblity to educate my
children- I would not stay at a lousy job to help the economy I am certainly
not going to leave my children in a failing public school system to help it or
the cause out... I still advocate for GT kids in my district- I have put up a
website with my district knowledge and understanding to share with other GT
parents- we can support the GT population without sacrificing our children.
A famous trade unionist in a Teachers Union once said - We do not strike for
ourselves, we do not want to lose pay or benefits, we love our job. We
strike
for those that come afterwards.
>
teachers are adults - not children.
In isolated areas and special medical conditions I can understand home
schooling, but in urban areas and areas of high resource and population is not
the selfishness of the here and now destructive to the gifted person and the
gifted community in the long term.
>
A gifted child can feel alone in any school that does not provide appropriate
services- be that a school of 2 or of 2000.
My first question is, how do you teach a child its ok and even good to be
bored, frustrated, and at times lonely and limited, before it triggers anti-
social behavior of the I Want it Now syndrome ?
>
My generation call generation X has been accused of the I want it Now Syndrome-
so have the Baby Boomers- guess what? The majority of those two
populations were educated in Public School.
I guess my 2nd question is how do you lobby for resources, when you hide the
problem and reject society in such a way, that society in general does not
decide to reject you back. ( ie you do it to use so we do it back to you)
?
How do you prove that the invisible exists and needs funding, resourses ?
> I think your question is based on personal feelings that
Homeschooling is a rejection of society- I would like to think that most
homeschoolers consider homeschooling a declaration of love, a use of our
american freedom and the family values to ensure an adequate education for our
children.
My husband was reluctant about the idea of homeschooling at first. But our
children were clearly underchallenged, even after skips/early entry, so the
'age peer' factor that people sometimes use as an argument in favor of
staying in school was moot in our case. Plus we have two older children,
now college-aged, who went through conventional schooling, and were not
well served by it. The oldest ds did not go on to college (yet!<crossed
fingers>) because he could see no point: he had not had a positive,
challenging year except for 3rd grade. He used to beg me to homeschool him,
but I listened to all the arguments against it, and was afraid. He rarely
got accelerated material, or else it was taken away if he didn't behave
(plus, he often had to do the regular work, as well, which was punitive).
He came to hate school, and he learned that he was 'supposed to be' bored
there. This was a very bright child who loved to learn.
Oldest dd played the 'good girl' card in school, and got all As (and didn't
want to skip), and was never really challenged.
After I pointed things out to dh over a period of time: "look what they do
at home; look what they're 'learning' at school", he saw that it was worth
a try. He still isn't sure if he wants them to 'someday' go back to
'regular' school. I myself think that might be college, at an early age,
but we'll see!
I myself, felt that I might not be equal to the task, and I was a classroom
teacher! I now think it is great, and it gives us so much more family time,
and time to explore their interests and become who they would like to be.
They are both more confident, more empathetic (because of the distance?
lack of stress?) and more persevering (which is supposed to be something
the critics say sticking it out in a boring situation teaches kids!). The
pay, however, is not as good (LOL)!
--- Bridget
> Anonymous #4 wrote:
>
> > Any suggestions when a spouse wants to homeschool, but the other spouse
> > doesn't? >>>>
>
> Kathi answered: I always advise married parents who disagree on whether
or not to
> homeschool, that they MUST work out an agreement and solution together,
and
> come to an agreement between themselves first.
> If you have had the experience of having to negotiate this issue with a
> spouse and come to an agreement (either to homeschool or not to
> homeschool!), please feel free to post your experience here if you are
> willing.
At 02:13 PM 9/20/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>Jenny, I just saw a fabulous curriculum guide at the Homeschoolers of Maine
>bookstore that does exactly this!!
>
>It's called "Movies as Literature" by Kathryn Stout. Here's a link to her
>page that discusses it:
>
>http://www.designastudy.com/products/movies.html
>
>She also has a couple of online articles about this approach:
>
>http://www.designastudy.com/teaching/tips-0101.html
>
>http://www.designastudy.com/teaching/tips-0201.html
I've gotten the book and though it is very well done, and the movies are
classics -- many of them are NOT movies that appeal to my 13 year old
boy. I'm still trying to decide how to deal with that problem, I suspect
I'll end up using some different movies. It was all I could do to get him
to sit through The Quiet Man once, he isn't going to watch it a second
time, answer questions about it and then write a paper.
- Joni
>
> 1. It teaches the children that its not ok to be a little bored, or a
> little
> frustrated, which is part of life in general, and that the pattern is not
> repeated later on in life. Which just increases the depression, self
> harm, and
> non coping skills later on in life, and its probably more destructive
> to the
> gifted person in general in the long term. Road rage, theft, murder,
> drugs,
> alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, all have psychological
> triggers in the
> areas of impatient.
Um, have you *tried* homeschooling? Do you actually *know* any
homeschooled children or teens -- or at least enough to see them as a
sample size? I know lots and lots of HSed kids and formerly HS
teens/young adults, and I have to say that my Dh and I were so impressed
with the vast majority of them that that is what pushed us over the
fence to choose homeschooling for our own family. (Keeping in mind, of
course, that there is a huge difference between homeschooling and
'dropping out,' of course.) We just really hope our kids turn out so well.
> 2. When you take a child out of school into home schooling, the other
> students, school and the education system suffer, as well as the gifted
> community suffer. Because the school no longer has to deal with the
> gifted
> child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under the table because
> they
> dont have to deal with it.
I think that's backwards: the schools long have a history of not dealing
with gt kids appropriately (for example, 30 years ago when I was in
school!), and as a result, many parents of gt kids have chosen to look
for alternatives, such as HSing.
> And finally the other class mates, and teachers
> lose the benefit of knowing a gifted person, who could inspire them,
> teach
> them, and by example help make the school environment a much better
> place by
> example, by there inspiration and extended mental ability - teach
> others by
> demonstration and example.
My kids are known by lots of other people, in school & out, child &
adult. If there's a benefit to being known, those people still have that
opportunity. :-)
Afa making the school environment a better place, how on Earth could a
bored, frustrated child make the school environment a better place? Yes,
a little boredom can be a learning experience, but we're not talking
about a little boredom -- we're talking about something much more
extreme here. It's the kind of thing that makes solitary confinement in
a prison such an awful punishment for some adults -- the extreme
boredom. Even adults have limits.
> A famous trade unionist in a Teachers Union once said - We do not
> strike for ourselves, we do not want to lose pay or benefits, we love
> our job. We strike for those that come afterwards.
Striking? I think I'm making a responsible decision regarding educating
the children I brought into this world. They didn't ask me to bring them
here, and they deserve the best and most appropriate education I can
give them. I don't have to sacrifice my own children on the alter of
lousy education in order to advocate for better education for all, and
as it happens, I'm a lobbyist by training. Advocating for change comes
naturally to me, and my kids are showing signs of doing the same, which
pleases me to no end, because I think that can often be equated with
caring about those around you. :-)
> My first question is, how do you teach a child its ok and even good to be
> bored, frustrated, and at times lonely and limited, before it triggers
> anti-
> social behavior of the I Want it Now syndrome ?
By living their lives. Frankly, I have found the I Want It Now Syndrome
to be FAR more common in the schooled kids I know -- not exclusively, of
course. More to the point, I have to deal with being bored or frustrated
on a regular basis, and so do my children, because life is like that. I
wonder, what is your idea of homeschooling? And I ask that seriously --
because it looks to me like you have some misconceptions about what
homeschooling is that are perhaps leading you to unsupportable conclusions.
> I guess my 2nd question is how do you lobby for resources, when you
> hide the
> problem and reject society in such a way, that society in general does
> not
> decide to reject you back. ( ie you do it to use so we do it back to
> you) ?
> How do you prove that the invisible exists and needs funding, resourses ?
Hm. You know, I think that's a red herring, and I wonder if you are
truly interested in answers. I'm sorry if this is offensive, but I think
(I could be wrong) this is supposed to be a conference supporting the
homeschooling of gifted children, and you don't sound like you want
information regarding how to homeschool your gifted child, you sound
like you want to attack those of us who have made that choice, despite
having little good information regarding what it is we are actually
doing. I'd be happy to tell you more about why my family makes the
choices we do, if you are truly interested.
Corin
-
> I notice many of you seem to somewhat view college/university as the "end
> of the trip" -- trying to get your kids on the right path in order that
> they will finally find university as the place where they better "fit in"
> because of the higher level thinking.
>
> I just wanted to say that it isn't always exactly like that. My oldest son
> (PG) skipped most of high school and now is a sophomore at a local
> university, studying toward a dual major. Now, although he admits that
> university work is better than high school work, he also feels many days
> that it is also "too easy" and somewhat unsatisfying. And he also
> encounters some of the same problems he did in high school.
I think this is an important point. This problem is often less if your child is
able to either get into an honors program at the local university or attend one
of the more selective colleges. These programs will have a larger number of
gifted students, and at many of them your child will not be the only PG kid. Of
course, it can be a shock to suddenly find intellectual peers, but for most of
us it's a very pleasant one.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
> Finally, I would reiterate Meredith's comment of yesterday -- many gifted
> kids with disabilities are able to compensate so well their disabilities
> stay hidden until they hit really tough academic demands, and then things
> may fall apart. An early evaluation may pick up some of these hidden
> disabilities at a time when they are most likely to be easily corrected
> (such as a vision problem) or compensated for with appropriate strategies.
One caveat - unfortunately, many testers are not knowledgeable enough to pick up
on these cues. So, if you do have testing with any of the standard IQ tests
(WISC, SB, etc.) and you see a large amount of scatter between subtests - even
if all are above average - you may wish to explore the possibility that the low
scores are indicative of areas of weakness that merit further evaluation.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
> Meredith, do you think it would be at all effective for parents of gifted
> children with disabilities to testify before Congress during the
> reauthorization of IDEA next time, and tell some of these stories, and try
> to get language into IDEA that clarifies the issue of gifted kids with
> disabilities? (same for ADA and 504?)
Not to be discouraging, but I'm not at all sure that we are even going to get be
able to get anything bearable for non-gifted special needs children out of this
round of reauthorization. For some good discussion of the issues, see
information on the Wrightslaw site (the premier Special Ed law site) at
http://www.wrightslaw.com/nltr/03/nl.0903.htm and also at
http://www.ourchildrenleftbehind.com. Read what they say and then contact your
congresspeople. The situation is extremely scary and extremely urgent.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
Julie,
Thanks so much for replying! Guess I'm in the minority with this issue. :-)
We looked through the guides you mentioned as well (purchased some of them),
but they seem to be heavy on the humanities and a little light on the
sciences. Or maybe our perspective is skewed from having math/science kids
(and several scientists in the extended family who are always happy to
provide input). He did the WJ a few years ago and I'm seriously thinking
about doing it again.
You wrote "We've also visited the websites of various state school
diistricts - some have excellent "scope and sequences" or "educational
outcomes" listed... " Would you mind sharing one or two you found helpful?
Here are some examples of our state's "learning goals and academic
expectations":
"1.2 Students make sense of the variety of materials they read.
1.3 Students make sense of the various things they observe.
1.4 Students make sense of the various messages to which they listen."
I have no idea how to assess this or how to let this guide my teaching. Some
of the listings are a bit clearer, but they are all very very vague (at
least to me). On the one hand, I think I could make a strong case to
indicate that my 8 year-old has mastered most of them (he "makes sense"
quite frequently), but I know there are tons of things he's never really
learned -- weather and economics being two topics we've never really delved
into yet.
The "programs of study" resources are a little more explicit, but if we go
by those he is working at 6th to 8th grade levels in many areas and that
just doesn't seem right (he is such a goofball kid). I would like to have
some good guidelines we can confidently sink our teeth into. It seems that
other parents discuss grade level with great confidence and we still find it
all very baffling. Thanks! Trish
Hi Sally,
Sally wrote:
>
> Finding the balance between what is intensely a good
> motivator versus that which due to too much mental beating
> oneself up over past performance preventing future successful
> performance is something very challenging to develop.
How does one do find that balance? Does the coach help with that?
Is there a book or article on the subject that you could recommend?
> Many college scholars and champions in athletic have majors
> in very academic fields ie. biophysics, etc.
That's why I thought fencing might be a good fit for her. There's a lot
of strategy involved in the sport, and she's very analytical.
> Perhaps your view that she is only a scholar and not really an athlete may be
> a viewpoint which is too Hmmmmm she is one or the other, but difficult to
> exist in the same little person?
Well, I don't want her to feel she HAS to excel at everything. She puts
so much pressure on herself already.
> Do you have information that she is athletically at "just" the level of her
> agemates? Do you have physical testing which indicates such?
No, I don't really know how she compares to agemates.
At almost 13 years old she's pretty tall 5'5" & still growing, slender
and has very quick reflexes. She's an amazingly fast runner, good at
gymnastics, and is learning to horseback ride, and rock climb. I think
she's above average in physical abilities, but not anywhere near where
she is in academic abilities.
I know many of the other fencers consider her a worthy opponent and have
complemented her on her fencing.
> Perhaps she is performing really at a higher age level
> and is really not at the same range of typical X year
> old skills - This information, if possible to gather, may shed
> some light on where she is at and what realistic goals to
> have in place to develop where does she want to go?
Her coach did encourage her to join their women's team, but we had
schedule conflicts with her orchestra performances.
> setting goals so she can achieve what "she" wants to
> achieve is very key in a competitive athlete world, but
> also very important IMHO even if she wants to compete in a
> recreational level due to other interests and time commitments.
Yes, I think you're absolutely right. But how does one learn to do this?
After reading your email I called the fencing studio and spoke with the
Fencer/fencing teacher/business manager/OT. (small business, so she
wears many hats) She's not E's main coach/teacher, but he's almost
impossible to get through to. She said that it's not unusual for
beginning fencers to decide after a year or so they're not making enough
progress and decide to quit. She suggested taking the emphasis off the
competitions, and putting it on personal goal setting and skill
development. And maybe E should consider switching weapons from foil to
epée. This woman is the National Bronze medallist for Division III
Women’s Epée, so she may be biased regarding choice of weapon, but she
would be a good coach for E, too. She also said she knows other girls
who tend to be perfectionists and can be very hard on themselves when
they don't win.
I'll have to see if E is willing to give fencing another try with a new
focus.
Thanks,
Mary
> Kay asked:
>
Is
>> there is a scale somewhere that roughly correlates age and SAT score with IQ
>> and/or level of giftedness? I see all the good articles and resources on the
>> net, but I don't really know what applies to my son and what doesn't because
>> I don't know his "category." Thanks!>>>>>
>
> Others may have a better answer to this than I do. The only thing I know of,
> of this type, are the requirements for entering the high-IQ societies
> (Mensa, and some of the high-IQ societies "beyond" Mensa, like Triple 9,
> Prometheus, and Mega).
Thanks for this lead, Kathi...OK, I chased this down from this angle and
found out that Mensa doesn't honor SAT scores after 1994. The other High IQ
sites weren't any help either as they start very high and don't take age
into account.
However, I did find that the Davidson Institute gives a Talent Search SAT
score cutoff for those not using a portfolio
(http://www.ditd.org/Public/article.aspx?cid=74). If a child's score was
above that could you assume he or she is at least borderline PG or is that a
gross oversimplification? Thanks,
Kay H
I think it's helpful to distinguish between learning skills (reading,
writing, math) and learning content (everything else). There is a
natural progression in learning to read, for example, and it's not hard
to figure out what it is. But for the "everything else" subjects,
grade level is entirely arbitrary. One state teaches dinosaurs and electricity
in third grade, another teaches the plant life cycle and weather. One starts
American history with the pre-Columbian era and proceeds through the Spanish and
French colonization before coming to the British. Another begins with the
British colonists and perhaps covers Native American history in another year, if
at all.
Even if my state's scope-and-sequence were written in English, I wouldn't pay
much attention to it. For me, the best time to teach any particular content in
science or history is when my daughter wants to learn it. Eventually I know
we'll get around to everything her father and I think it important.
Laura Gray
Trish Smith wrote:
>I still don't have a good grasp on how folks are figuring out what grade levels
their kids are working at and when it is time to move to the next level.
>
>...I'm also concerned that we may miss important areas because we didn't know
something was a typical third-grade or fourth-grade topic.
<< She loves LOTR, but hasn't read the books. We try to encourage her to read
them, even have us read them to her. She says, I don't want to read the book, I
want them to play it out for me. So, more videos it is. ... Possibly books on
tape, books with large print. I am going to allow her to record her stories onto
tape for me and I will type them for her. She really has a difficult time with
writing. Although, she has a very creative mind for stories and situations. I
think I would rather develop this and let go of neat handwriting. I will also
encourage different play other than Barbies when other children come to play.
Hopefully this will alleviate aggravation. >>
I forget how old your daughter is. However, given what you write, I'd like to
suggest that you consider whether she might need to have her vision checked by a
developmental optometrist and have an OT evaluation for fine motor skills. If
she has vision problems, finds writing difficult, or finds reading difficult due
to dyslexia (another thing to keep an eye out for), it's better to find out
sooner rather than later - remediation is much more effective at younger ages.
http://www.interdys.org/servlet/compose?section_id=5&page_id=88 has a list of
the common signs of dyslexia for different age ranges.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
Hi Trish:
--- Trish Smith <trish@qx.net> wrote:
> We looked through the guides you mentioned as well
> (purchased some of them),
> but they seem to be heavy on the humanities and a
> little light on the
> sciences. Or maybe our perspective is skewed from
> having math/science kids
No, I think this is because there is little emphasis
on math and science in elementary school. I think
this is a problem for many of us. It is relatively
easy to know what grade your child is at math-wise,
but figuring out science is a real pain, especially if
your child, like mine, has been pursuing science on
his own in diverse areas, at diverse rates.
A woman who recently sent her child back to elem.
school in our district noted that most of the day was
spent on reading/writing/spelling. A small amount of
time each day was dedicated to math, while 'social
studies' and science each were covered once per week.
We are in a very good district.
> Here are some examples of our state's "learning
> goals and academic
> expectations":
>
> "1.2 Students make sense of the variety of
> materials they read.
> 1.3 Students make sense of the various things
> they observe.
> 1.4 Students make sense of the various
> messages to which they listen."
>
> I have no idea how to assess this or how to let this
> guide my teaching.
Oh, I just hate those state standards. The jargon
makes my head hurt! I found the book "Home Learning
Year by Year" by Rebecca Rupp makes a lot more sense.
Other parents have recommended sources such as "What
Your X-Grader Should Know" as decent benchmarks.
but I know there are tons of
> things he's never really
> learned -- weather and economics being two topics
> we've never really delved
> into yet.
I think most of the topics are covered only very, very
supeficially at the primary level. Your child
probably already knows enough about weather and
economics just by absorbing things from his
environment to meet the elementary standards. This is
just my opinion, of course.
>
> The "programs of study" resources are a little more
> explicit, but if we go
> by those he is working at 6th to 8th grade levels in
> many areas and that
> just doesn't seem right (he is such a goofball kid).
IKWYM! I think it is b/c science education, etc. in
the lower grades is so poor, that it is relatively
easy for a gifted child with any interest in the
subject to advance rapidly to a much higher grade
level.
That's just my .02. Perhaps Kathi or someone with
more experience can elaborate/correct me on this....
SarahG
From: "Julie Knapp"
<<I'd like to add that many in the medical and therapy fields don't realize this
situation, either! I've been on many G/T lists for many years... and I've heard
the stories of way-too-many parents who struggle to solve the puzzle of their
gifted childrens' "hidden" or "masked" disabilities. ... Those with twice
exceptional kids (or those wondering if that is their situation) may get "the
brush-off" from their pediatrician, and may not get accurate info from their
opthomologist, ENT, occuptional therapist, speech therapist, or testing
psychologist. (to mention a few)>>
That's how I ended up getting into the educational advising business - I found
myself spending so much time helping parents interpret their children's test
scores and making suggestions about which further evaluations were called for.
I often end up having to write reports explaining why particular further
evaluations really are necessary.
<<Worse than simple mis-information, parents may get the implication that they
are "over-protective", "enabling", "over-reacting", and just seeking to make
their children "perfect". :-/ The less stout-hearted parent may stop pursuing
the problems they see... >>
For a WONDERFUL article on "enabling", read "Enabling Our Children" by Deborah
Thorpe, at http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/enabling.htm.
I remember taking my son to an OT for a sensory integration evaluation. I
explained to her that I'd had trouble filling out the questionnaire because I'd
stopped putting my son into some of the situations it asked about, or had
learned how to soothe him in other situations. After so many years of being
accused of being overprotective, I nearly burst into tears when the OT exclaimed
"You're such a good mother! You saw what he needed and you gave him it!"
<<Are there any websites that keep regional lists of professionals who are
responsive and knowledgeable to the possibility of being twice-exceptional? I
think such a clearinghouse would be very helpful...>>
I don't know of any clearinghouses. However, many people have had good luck
asking for recommendations on GT-Special, since that list has a geographically
diverse membership.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
mailto:mwarshaw@uniquelygifted.org
Let me add my voice to those thanking Kathi!
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
Bridget,
Bridget wrote:
> I am actually facing a somewhat similar dilemma. My younger (almost 10yo
> dd) is taking algebra through a homeschool group. The teacher is nice, but
> he is a rambler and a repeat-what-is-on-the page retired guy.
It's amazing the difference a good teacher can make. We were lucky to
find a grad student in math at a local university to do math tutoring
when my daughter was around your daughter's age and doing Algebra 1. He
was a wonderful teacher and his attitude made all the difference. She
really looked forward to working with him every week. Although we used a
textbook, he wasn't a by-the-book kind of guy. Probably because math was
his life, so he didn't need the scaffolding that a book provides. Of
course this is easier to do with one student than it is in a group
class.
> But both the teacher and the book (yikes!) are a poor fit for her.
Does she realize it's not her level of ability or the subject that's the
problem, but the poor fit with the teacher and the book?
If she does, then I wouldn't worry about it turning her off to math.
If not, I'd probably start looking for a different teacher.
It sure can be a challenge some days, good luck to you!
Best wishes,
Mary
--
My son is in a homeschooling literature class that is wonderful for reluctant
readers. Although the teacher is local, I'd think that this format could work
for others.
The class does all books as read-alouds. No homework, lots of discussion. Our
particular teacher is wonderful with the kids and has a masters degree in
history, so she's especially good at filling in historical background. The
class has kids from 10 to 18 years old. No child may take the class unless he
or she wants to be there - in other words, it can't just be the parents who want
the child there. Because the teacher is a confirmed Quaker, she's committed to
having all books chosen by consensus - and the kids trust her enough that she's
able to get them to agree to quite high level books that they might not
otherwise chose and that many of them would be unable to read on their own.
Last year they did A Tale of Two Cities, Pride & Prejudice, and A Connecticutt
Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Last year they met once/week for 2 1/2 hours,
with a fairly long break in the middle (snack and socialization). This year
it's 2/wk for 2 hours, adn they've just started the Three Musketeers. My son
could never have gotten through reading these books on his own, but he loves the
class and looks forward to it each week!
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
mailto:mwarshaw@uniquelygifted.org
http://uniquelygifted.org
Trish wrote re: science:
>>The "programs of study" resources are a little more
>>explicit, but if we go by those he is working at 6th to 8th grade levels in
many areas and that just doesn't seem right (he is such a goofball kid).
>>
I recently had occasion to talk to the local school district about
science curriculum for my 6yo. I went through their texts one by one,
and the sixth grade book was the first one that had any real content. It
doesn't really mean anything about your kid or mine--it just means they
don't teach science in the government elementary schools! Poor kids...
But lucky us--our kids can explore science to their hearts' conten, and
up until age 12 or so you don't have to worry about what the PS kids are
doing--they aren't really doing anything.
Laura Gray (again)
I learned a lot from this conference, and have stashed away much of the
information you presented for future use.
Laura Gray
I'm writing from the UK where I have been HSing my ds (7) and dd (5) for two
years since ds's traumatic year in K. We are pretty much child-led in our
learning, but after they were both 'diagnosed' egpg last year (at GDC, who
also said they are VS learners) I took steps to introduce much higher level
material, with the result that they both, but ds in particular, became a lot
happier.
All would be fine if it were not for ds's problems with reading and writing.
We're half way through vision therapy which is meant to correct his
tracking, focusing and reversal problems, but we're still waiting for his
reading to take off, though it is definately improving.
He's whizzed through the science curriculum mainly using school teaching
videos and discussions and demonstrations with me, so that now he's starting
grade 10 physics, electronics, chemistry and biology. We regularly range
well beyond this level, again using discussions with me, educational TV
(some very good programs in this country) and TV programs from the Open
University here - well I guess you know what that's like :-)) - so I know he
needs this level. Trouble is, here the schoolkids sit national exams at the
end of grade 11, which at present rate is where he'll be within the year. I
can't see being able to persuade the exam boards that he should be allowed
to sit the exams with someone to read and write for him, and I don't think
he'll want to do them anyway. He's not producing any written work, so
persuading anyone that he's actually reached this level is problematic, and
he has holes in his knowledge where he won't, for example, sit down and
practice reproducing the diagrams that are needed at this level. He can't go
on to do the college classes he'd like to because (a) he's too young, and
(b) he doesn't have the necessary grades in these national exams, and (c) he
wouldn't be able to read and write in the labs and so on, and (d) he's
almost phobic about going back into anything that looks remotely like a
school setting (though we attend science lectures for physicists and the
public regularly, but that's different because it's a theatre-like setting,
not a room).
It feels like we're flying through a fog, just zooming on, and I have no
idea whether we are going to hit a big rock in the middle of it when we come
to the point where he just has to prove his understanding with an official
test result in order to go any further. Meanwhile, while I hesitate, he's
starting to complain that we're not doing enough :-(
We also have difficulties in math. He's stalled at around the grade 6 level
because he won't look at anything written down, but wants to learn by having
me ask him questions which he then figures out the answers to. Well, great,
except that his short term memory isn't, and he often makes little mistakes
at the end of the computations and ends up with the wrong answer. I've told
him writing it down would avoid this problem, but so far he doesn't want to
do it. Again, I'm hesitating over pressing on, although we have gone over
many higher level concepts verbally and using those excellent school TV
programs. I just don't feel comfortable that he can actually do everything
yet, even if he does 'get' the concept - does that make sense? I'd like to
see just a few of each kind of problem worked on a piece of paper!
I'm not sure I have a choice in this, ds is getting restless and unhappy, so
we've got to forge onwards somehow, but if you have any ideas for improving
my comfort level I would love to hear them!
Thanks
Stephanie
(in England)
> dear kathy,
>
> while i can understand that home schooling helps the child for
> the now. It has
> to negative effects in general.
Please cite your research to support this statement.
>
> I was wondering if you had any long term strategies to prevent
> the following
> situations, on the cause and effects of home schooling.
>
> 1. It teaches the children that its not ok to be a little bored,
> or a little
> frustrated, which is part of life in general, and that the pattern is not
> repeated later on in life. Which just increases the depression,
> self harm, and
> non coping skills later on in life, and its probably more
> destructive to the
> gifted person in general in the long term. Road rage, theft,
> murder, drugs,
> alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, all have psychological
> triggers in the
> areas of impatient.
A little bored or frustrated is one thing and if that all it ever was LOL
very few of us would be homeschooling. The facts are :
70 % of the curriculum is already known by a gt child.(can't find the source
right now)
more than 4-5 times of reviewing the material causes regression where as the
normal child requires 15-30 repetitions.
If you are interested Karen Rogers has done a bang up job of synthesis of
the research.
http://www.austega.com/gifted/articles/Rogers_researchsynthesis.htm
So it's not a *little* boredom or frustration it is MAJOR boredom and
frustration.
The impatience comes from sitting day after day week after week waiting for
the other kids to catch up and in many cases that will not happen until
college.
>
> 2. When you take a child out of school into home schooling, the other
> students, school and the education system suffer, as well as the gifted
> community suffer. Because the school no longer has to deal with
> the gifted
> child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under the table
> because they
> dont have to deal with it.
Yes and no. It's sad but in decades and decades of advocacy for gt
education the situation has not improved. I do not want my child to suffer
the way that I did through lack of challenging material. My child was in a
FT GT program for the upper 2% and it wasn't enough. They operated at 1 year
above grade level which suited the majority of the kids quite nicely...those
we call the pleasantly gifted. But as everyone knows we have our won bell
curve within this sub-group. My dd needed material 4-5 years above grade
level and that delivered at twice the speed as hs.
It reduces Gifted lobbying and
> political evidence
> because there numbers are too low to justify any change to the
> current system,
> because with out the evidence of the numbers and needs of a
> gifted segment of
> the population being recognized being within the system - then
> the system has
> no basis from which to change.
The gifted represent 2% of the population and most on this list are in the
upper 1%. They will never, ever have numbers to "big to be ignored".I have
lobbied for years in my state and make the obligatory trip to the capital
and testify ..this year we saved Destination Imagination...whoop de do.
And finally the other class mates,
> and teachers
> lose the benefit of knowing a gifted person, who could inspire
> them, teach
> them, and by example help make the school environment a much
> better place by
> example, by there inspiration and extended mental ability - teach
> others by
> demonstration and example.
...and to whom does my child look for inspiration, and extended mental
ability. She was beyond any math that the school and it's teachers had to
offer. Who teaches her? Is it her responsibility to sacrifice her own
educational needs for the group...to teach them by demonstration and example
while she wallows in boredom and frustration..how can this be good for
anyone?
>
> A famous trade unionist in a Teachers Union once said - We do not
> strike for
> ourselves, we do not want to lose pay or benefits, we love our
> job. We strike
> for those that come afterwards.
Well since school as we know it was designed to produce the factory workers
of tomorrow this is a fitting slogan.See __ __Underground History of
American Education__ by John Taylor Gatto. However it is the ones who chose
a different path, the Edison's , the Steinbeck's ,the Einsteins and the
Churchills that have changed lives (and they were homeschooled).
>
> In isolated areas and special medical conditions I can understand home
> schooling, but in urban areas and areas of high resource and
> population is not
> the selfishness of the here and now destructive to the gifted
> person and the
> gifted community in the long term.
I think this statement is where you have thrown down the gauntlet my dear.
Selfishness...I signed up for cookies 'n milk at the bus stop. I came into
homeschooling kicking and screaming. Homeschooling far from being
destructive has allowed my child to blossom. We are saving one gt child at
time with homeschooling and maybe the next generation will benefit from our
sacrifices.
>
> My first question is, how do you teach a child its ok and even good to be
> bored, frustrated, and at times lonely and limited, before it
> triggers anti-
> social behavior of the I Want it Now syndrome ?
Again where is the research.As a group homschoolers are more social and
resourceful than the schooled counter parts. They face boredom and
frustration in a home setting also but have the power to do something about
it. In school you have to sit and wait. You aren't allowed to move ahead or
go on to other things . My dd went back to school for a brief two weeks.
While her classmates worked on problems for a full 45 minutes my dd was done
with the assignment in 10 minutes...where is the lesson in patience here? At
home she can go on to other materials. She wants to earn and with home
schooling no one stands in her way.
> I guess my 2nd question is how do you lobby for resources, when
> you hide the
> problem and reject society in such a way, that society in general
> does not
> decide to reject you back. ( ie you do it to use so we do it back
> to you) ?
> How do you prove that the invisible exists and needs funding, resourses ?
Most of us homeschoolers still lobby for all of the gt kid...I don't know
why but we do..I guess we are good folk. Guess what ? Last lobby for gt ed
NONE of the parents of the kids in the ps gt program showed up . We are
making a difference . The homeschooling movement is growing and for good
reason . As a group the numbers will not be ignored and then maybe true
educational reform will happen.
Kristine
Kathi, thank you very much for your thoughtful response. You made some very
good points and gave me some more to think about. Very much appreciated.
Sally, thank you for getting this conference together. It was my first time
attending something like this and I have certainly gathered a lot of
information.
I would also like to thank all of you who joined in- I learnt a lot from
your emails.
We are getting ready to leave for the GDC today, so its time to bid adieu.
Thanks again,
Anjali
Must absolutely go pack now, but one last question for all of you
experienced homeschoolers:
Would you mind giving me your comments on what curriculum/courses you've
used or are using for the elementary years. I've got a lot of info out of
this chat, but if there are any others out there, I would appreciate hearing
about them, especially learning how useful you found them for your kids and
why.
Please do reply directly to me if you will be more comfortable responding
that way.
Thanks,
AJ
"It doesn't really mean anything about your kid or mine--it just means they
don't teach science in the government elementary schools! Poor kids..."
My husband is an architect who primarily designs educational facilitites. He
keeps telling me that there is little science happening at the elementary
school level, but I don't think I really believed him. ;->
Thanks everyone for the help and responses. Chewing them over.... Trish
>
> Those who fully buy in to the "unschooling" philosophy would say that when
a
> child needs to cover the basics, they will learn it themselves, and
usually
> quickly.
>
I can confirm this from my own experience. My son left public school at the
end of 4th grade. I understood his need to "deschool" from my research into
the topic and so I didn't ask him to do any formal work for the first year
he was home. I reasoned, he's already a year ahead of his age mates - if he
learns nothing this year, he won't get behind.
I was surprised, at the end of that year, to find he was more than a year
ahead of age mates when he took a nationally-normed test (Explore) for 8th
graders. DH and I decided to let him continue what he was doing, since it
obviously worked for him.
He played video games, learned Japanese, worked with a naturalist at a
nearby state park, and explored the internet over the next 3 years, then
went to high school as "just an average 9th grader". Within six weeks he
wanted to leave because "they waste so much time, Mom!" He stayed to finish
out the water polo season and then, at my request, finished the semester so
he'd have 1/2 credit on the books in each of his courses.
After winter break, he took a placement test for our community college, did
better than 93% of incoming high school graduates, and started college (he
was 14yo). He's taking 9 hours this semester and has a 4.0 GPA for last
semester (6 hours).
Where did he learn to write a research paper? He wrote 4 of them last
semester and got an "A" on each one. Where did he learn all the stuff he
needed for the placement test? I don't know. I didn't teach it to him. I
did make certain that he had access to a good library and the internet. He
read the newspaper daily. He watched NOVA on PBS and went to museums, for
fun.
I have come to believe that for highly gifted kids like mine, school was
purely daycare and not very effective at that. He's much happier and the
whole family feels less stress without public school. And, as noted, if
there are gaps in his education they filled in when I wasn't looking.
Unschooling does work. It may not work for everybody, but it does work for
us.
psam
At 06:08 PM 9/20/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>1. It teaches the children that its not ok to be a little bored, or a little
>frustrated, which is part of life in general, and that the pattern is not
>repeated later on in life. Which just increases the depression, self harm,
>and
>non coping skills later on in life, and its probably more destructive to the
>gifted person in general in the long term. Road rage, theft, murder, drugs,
>alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, all have psychological triggers in
>the
>areas of impatient.
My children were more than just a little bored in school. Depression, self
harm and non-coping skills happen to many, many children who successfully
complete public schools -- I know this first hand.
>
>2. When you take a child out of school into home schooling, the other
>students, school and the education system suffer, as well as the gifted
>community suffer. Because the school no longer has to deal with the gifted
>child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under the table because they
>dont have to deal with it.
When I pulled my son out to homeschool, I was president of my state gifted
association whose members are mostly teachers, gifted coordinators and
administrators in the public schools. I may have been the first parent to
serve as president -- I was certainly the first homeschooling parent. I
haven't stopped advocating for gifted in my state -- I'm still on the board
(in the last of my allowed 6 years of service) and I maintain their website
and one other gifted website for free. I don't think the gifted community
suffered by my being a homeschooler -- it enlightened many of just how our
public schools are failing even the children in our state who have parents
that DO advocate for them.
I pulled my son (part-time -- he still attends public school part of the
day) because what the school was doing wasn't working for him - big
time. He was angry and getting angrier and it was the only alternative
that we thought might have a chance of success. Things aren't perfect, but
they are better.
> in urban areas and areas of high resource and population is not
>the selfishness of the here and now destructive to the gifted person and the
>gifted community in the long term.
So you think that for the "greater good" parents should be willing to
sacrifice their children?
>
>My first question is, how do you teach a child its ok and even good to be
>bored, frustrated, and at times lonely and limited, before it triggers anti-
>social behavior of the I Want it Now syndrome ?
My son had the "I want it now" syndrome before he ever started
homeschooling -- we able to work on it more now that he is home. I think
it is more of a societal problem than a homeschooling one. And trust me,
he gets plenty bored and frustrated with homeschooling <grin> but we try
and find other things to do that accomplish the same goal if it gets too bad.
>
>I guess my 2nd question is how do you lobby for resources, when you hide the
>problem and reject society in such a way, that society in general does not
>decide to reject you back. ( ie you do it to use so we do it back to you) ?
>How do you prove that the invisible exists and needs funding, resourses ?
I'm not hiding the problem, I out there advocating every day. I've spoken
at our state gifted conference, NAGC and for small groups in my state. I
belong to several email lists for gifted and participate on a regular
basis. And I do the best I can to make sure that my children don't end up
so full of rage and anger that they are destructive to society.
- Joni
Hi,
My daughter is
7. I'm sorry, but could you please tell me what <<<OT evaluation
for fine motor skills. If she has vision problems, finds writing difficult, or
finds reading difficult due to dyslexia>>>> Thanks !!!!!
Stephanie
Meredith Warshaw <mwarshaw@uniquelygifted.org> wrote:
<< She
loves LOTR, but hasn't read the books. We try to encourage her to read
them, even have us read them to her. She says, I don't want to read the book, I
want them to play it out for me. So, more videos it is. ... Possibly books on
tape, books with large print. I am going to allow her to record her stories
onto
tape for me and I will type them for her. She really has a difficult time with
writing. Although, she has a very creative mind for stories and situations. I
think I would rather develop this and let go of neat handwriting. I will also
encourage different play other than Barbies when other children come to play.
Hopefully this will alleviate aggravation. >>
I forget how old your daughter is. However, given what you write, I'd like to
suggest that you consider whether she might need to have her vision checked by
a
developmental optometrist and have an OT evaluation for fine motor skills. If
she has vision problems, finds writing difficult, or finds reading difficult
due
to dyslexia (another thing to keep an eye out for), it's better to find out
sooner rather than later - remediation is much more effective at younger ages.
http://www.interdys.org/servlet/compose?section_id=5&page_id=88 has a list
of
the common signs of dyslexia for different age ranges.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
mailto:mwarshaw@uniquelygifted.org
http://uniquelygifted.org
-
I would also like to thank you, Kathi, for your time, and Sally, for
setting this up. I have never participated in an on-line conference before
(though I do belong to a good gifted email group). This was very
informative and enjoyable, and I appreciate your time, attention and effort!
--- Bridget
Kathy, I've been
hearing good things about universities becoming more knowledgable about
homeschooling, and more accepting of homeschool transcripts as proof of high
school graduation...
But I'm
wondering what the trends are for the very competitive
universities? Do homeschoolers have better luck with admittance if
they have a degree from a correspondence school such as the American
School
http://www.americanschoolofcorr.com/
or a homeschool transcript?
I'm thinking
that many public school seniors who apply to competative colleges also have
loads of school activities/leadership programs/honor society memberships,
etc... things that can look pretty glamorous on paper. (at
least more officially-recognized than many comparable homeschool
activities)
Any BTDT's on
applying to a competative university? (I don't know what ds will end up
wanting to "be" when he's older... just trying to plan ahead :-)
-julie
Here's a website
from Lakota public school district in Ohio - it is one of the better I've run
across... this is the Curriculum Overview for the elementary grades
http://www.lakotaonline.com/district/info/0304currhandbk.pdf
Hope this helps!
-julie
<< My daughter is 7. I'm sorry, but could you please tell me what <<<OT
evaluation for fine motor skills. If she has vision problems, finds writing
difficult, or finds reading difficult due to dyslexia>>>>
Sorry - didn't mean to be cryptic ;^)
OT is occupational therapy.
At the dyslexia site I posted before, it lists the following signs of possible
dyslexia for a child your daughter's age:
- May be slow to learn the connection between letters and sounds.
- Has difficulty decoding single words (reading single words in isolation).
- Has difficulty spelling phonetically.
- Makes consistent reading and spelling errors such as:
Letter reversals - "d" for "b" as in: "dog" for "bog"
Word reversals - "tip" for "pit"
Inversions - "m" for "w," "u" for "n"
Transpositions - "felt" for "left"
Substitutions - "house" for "home"
- May confuse small words - "at" for "to," "said" for "and," "does" for "goes."
- Relies on guessing and context.
- May have difficulty learning new vocabulary.
- May transpose number sequences and confuse arithmetic signs (+ - x / =).
- May have trouble remembering facts.
- May be slow to learn new skills; relies heavily on memorizing without
understanding.
- May have difficulty planning, organizing and managing time, materials and
tasks.
- Often uses an awkward pencil grip (fist, thumb hooked over fingers, etc.).
- May have poor "fine motor" coordination.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
mailto:mwarshaw@uniquelygifted.org
http://uniquelygifted.org
We use Singapore math for the math http://www.singaporemath.com/ (though as
I said before, dd is taking an algebra course). Will be happy to send you
more info about it, and what we do in general, if you want- feel free to
email me when you get back.
--- Bridget, who is envious of your journey to GDC, and hopes your
taglet(s) have a wonderful evaluation!
She does realize that it is the teacher (and she HATES the book!: it does
things like review graphing on a number line, and then in the chapter end
problems, ask for graphing of a function! She didn't find the concept
difficult at all, but resented that it wasn't introduced, and she has to
keep asking me what to do. It erodes her confidence, and I find it
annoying, too, because she is more than capable of following through most
textbooks. <sigh>), and actually she is enjoying learning the new concepts,
but the overall situation is discouraging. I never thought of a one-on-one
tutorial for her. I think I'll look into that! I would like this to be a
more positive experience, and a 'switch' would be good, and much preferable
to a 'quit'. Thanks! :-)
--- Bridget, who's thinking how it is always easier to see a situation
clearly when you're not mired in it!
Earlier, I wrote:
> > I am actually facing a somewhat similar dilemma. My younger (almost
10yo
> > dd) is taking algebra through a homeschool group. The teacher is nice,
but
> > he is a rambler and a repeat-what-is-on-the page retired guy.
>
> It's amazing the difference a good teacher can make. We were lucky to
> find a grad student in math at a local university to do math tutoring
> when my daughter was around your daughter's age and doing Algebra 1. He
> was a wonderful teacher and his attitude made all the difference. She
> really looked forward to working with him every week. Although we used a
> textbook, he wasn't a by-the-book kind of guy. Probably because math was
> his life, so he didn't need the scaffolding that a book provides. Of
> course this is easier to do with one student than it is in a group
> class.
>
> > But both the teacher and the book (yikes!) are a poor fit for her.
>
> Does she realize it's not her level of ability or the subject that's the
> problem, but the poor fit with the teacher and the book?
>
> If she does, then I wouldn't worry about it turning her off to math.
> If not, I'd probably start looking for a different teacher.
> It sure can be a challenge some days, good luck to you!
>
> Best wishes,
> Mary
Trish wrote:
> We looked through the guides you mentioned as well (purchased some of them),
> but they seem to be heavy on the humanities and a little light on the
> sciences. Or maybe our perspective is skewed from having math/science kids
> (and several scientists in the extended family who are always happy to
> provide input). He did the WJ a few years ago and I'm seriously thinking
> about doing it again.>>>>
If you do have the WJ administered again, and you are looking for measures
in science (and social studies, and humanities), in addition to testing with
the full WJ-III you may want to have the examiner pull out the old WJ-R. The
WJ-III took the separate optional science, social studies, and humanities
subtests from the WJ-R, shortened them, and *combined* them into one
"academic knowledge" subtest, so now you can't get a separate score for
each! (one of the only things I don't like about the WJ-III).
Trish continued:
>
> You wrote "We've also visited the websites of various state school
> diistricts - some have excellent "scope and sequences" or "educational
> outcomes" listed... " Would you mind sharing one or two you found helpful?
> Here are some examples of our state's "learning goals and academic
> expectations":
>
> "1.2 Students make sense of the variety of materials they read.
> 1.3 Students make sense of the various things they observe.
> 1.4 Students make sense of the various messages to which they listen."
>
> I have no idea how to assess this or how to let this guide my teaching. Some
> of the listings are a bit clearer, but they are all very very vague (at
> least to me). On the one hand, I think I could make a strong case to
> indicate that my 8 year-old has mastered most of them (he "makes sense"
> quite frequently), but I know there are tons of things he's never really
> learned -- weather and economics being two topics we've never really delved
> into yet.>>>>>
Each state has its own set of state "standards" (and some break the
standards down into "performance indicators" which are more specific), but
some of them are vague indeed. You may well have to look at a number of
states' standards in order to find some that are measurable enough for you
(no, I won't go on my state standards/state assessment tests tirade, I will
save that for the assessment conference, LOL!) The Virginia Standards of
Learning tend to be the most specific and most measurable of any of the
state standards out there, although the accompanying tests have been
criticized for focusing more on trivia.
Texas has placed released versions of its state tests online (with answers,
elementary and high school). Released New York State Regents exams (with
answers, high school only) are also available free online. So you could use
these as a guide, too:
Texas released tests: http://www.tea.state.tx.us/ (you should be able to
click on the "released tests" section, though I am getting a "page not
found" message today)
New York Regents Tests: http://www.nysedregents.org/testing/hsregents.html
Trish continued:
>
> The "programs of study" resources are a little more explicit, but if we go
> by those he is working at 6th to 8th grade levels in many areas and that
> just doesn't seem right (he is such a goofball kid). I would like to have
> some good guidelines we can confidently sink our teeth into. It seems that
> other parents discuss grade level with great confidence and we still find it
> all very baffling. >>>>
One reason might be that "grade level" often differs from state to state and
text to text! (and, from what it was 25 years ago, to what it is today -- in
both directions, depending on the subject -- math and science with higher
expectations today, and reading, language arts, and social studies having
somewhat lower expectations, as per textbooks).
However, you *could* always choose (or borrow from another homeschooler or
from a university curriculum lab) a good comprehensive textbook in a
particular subject, and use the midyear and end of book tests, or the
chapter tests, as placement tests to see how much of the material your child
seems to have mastered.
Kay wrote:
> However, I did find that the Davidson Institute gives a Talent Search SAT
> score cutoff for those not using a portfolio
> (http://www.ditd.org/Public/article.aspx?cid=74). If a child's score was
> above that could you assume he or she is at least borderline PG or is that a
> gross oversimplification? >>>
I don't think it's a "gross oversimplification." I think it's probably based
on talent search research coming out of the various talent searches.
Generally, the talent searches are looking for a score at or above the
average for college bound high school juniors and seniors (approximately 530
on either verbal or math) for their summer classes. I generally think of
this as the highly gifted range (give or take 30 points or so).
For Johns Hopkins' SET and SMPY, they are looking for scores above 630
verbal or 700 math before age 13. If you have a child who scores that high,
it's very likely he or she is well into the profoundly gifted range.
I believe that the researchers at Johns Hopkins have tried to do some
research regarding IQ and SAT-I scores on the SET/SMPY groups, but it has
been awhile since I have looked at that and I would have to hunt it up.
Anyone else have this handy?
> --- Trish Smith <trish@qx.net> wrote:
>
>> We looked through the guides you mentioned as well
>> (purchased some of them),
>> but they seem to be heavy on the humanities and a
>> little light on the
>> sciences. Or maybe our perspective is skewed from
>> having math/science kids
And SarahG answered:
>
> No, I think this is because there is little emphasis
> on math and science in elementary school. I think
> this is a problem for many of us. It is relatively
> easy to know what grade your child is at math-wise,
> but figuring out science is a real pain, especially if
> your child, like mine, has been pursuing science on
> his own in diverse areas, at diverse rates.>>>>
I actually disagree with some of this. Most of the school improvement monies
(both government and private) have gone into math & science education, not
the humanities (and especially not history). In fact, social studies and
history are being left out of many state assessment programs. I find that
there is a real bias out there to improve math and science instruction at
the expense of the humanities and the arts, and I think it is a true bias
and a real waste of children's talents, interests, and abilities.
Besides, arguably, students need a really good civics education just as much
as a good math or science education to function well in our society. Perhaps
they need this even *more* than science or math.
SarahG continued:
> IKWYM! I think it is b/c science education, etc. in
> the lower grades is so poor, that it is relatively
> easy for a gifted child with any interest in the
> subject to advance rapidly to a much higher grade
> level.>>>>>
This is true. Despite the emphasis on science education and the money thrown
at it, elementary science education for the most part remains very poor in
this country, with just a few exceptions (our school uses the Foss science
program, which is very rigorous, very hands-on, and wildly popular with our
kids -- even the gifted kids didn't want any science enrichment classes that
took them out of their regular science classes, so we just let them go with
the regular program!)
I find the same problem with materials developed specifically for
homeschooling science. Much of what is out there just isn't very good. Of
all the things on the homeschooling market, gifted kids seem to respond best
to the very rigorous Apologia Science program for grades 7 to 12 (no
surprise, it was developed by a former teacher at the Illinois School of
Math and Science, a public residential governors' school for highly gifted
high school kids). However, Apologia Science is a distinctly Christian
curriculum, so it won't be everyone's first choice.
psam gave a good example of how her "unschooled" son managed to learn enough
to pass the entrance tests at the college, then wrote:
> Unschooling does work. It may not work for everybody, but it does work for
> us.>>>>
And psam is right. Unschooling does work for many kids -- even though for
many people, including especially many people trained as teachers, it seems
most counterintuitive!
I can't remember which study it was, or I would look it up for you all, but
one study of homeschoolers I remember reading about compared test scores on
"unschooled" kids to those who used a more traditional homeschool
curriculum, and the scores were about the same for both groups.
Julie wrote:
<<<<<Kathy, I've been hearing good things about
universities becoming more knowledgable about homeschooling, and more accepting
of homeschool transcripts as proof of high school graduation...
But I'm wondering what the trends are for the very competitive universities?
Do homeschoolers have better luck with admittance if they have a degree
from a correspondence school such as the American School
http://www.americanschoolofcorr.com/ or a homeschool transcript?>>>>
No, it doesn't matter. In fact, some competitive colleges are even more
interested in the "unusual" way of doing things (via homeschooling,
or some of the very creative and a bit quirky private and alternative high
schools) than they are in kids who just do the status quo! They are looking for
a diverse student body.
Julie continued:
<<<I'm thinking that many public school seniors who apply to
competative colleges also have loads of school activities/leadership
programs/honor society memberships, etc... things that can look pretty
glamorous on paper. (at least more officially-recognized than many
comparable homeschool activities)>>>
Yes they do. But homeschoolers also have many unusual and interesting
activities. If a student is homeschooled, and has some of these
"alternate" activities, usually the college takes this into
consideration.
Julie wrote:
<<<<Any BTDT's on applying to a competative university?>>>
I've worked with several homeschooled kids who got themselves into Ivy League colleges. Some of them didn't even have a traditional transcript, they had more of a narrative transcript with work samples!
>Of course, with the internet, if you have an internet connection, is IS
>possible to homeschool your child nearly for free (except for the cost of
>your internet connection). There is an incredible number of very high
>quality educational materials out there for free on the internet.
>
>
As a point of reference, the first year we homeschooled C, we had her at
home and her younger sister in school. Overall (including buying milk
for lunches, school supplies, contributions for field trip costs, room
parent expenses, party supplies, contribution for teacher gifts,
backpack, lunchbox, replacement for stolen mittens, participation fees
for different school activities, etc.) it cost $435.00 more to have her
in school than to homeschool the eldest! And that cost differential
didn't include the wear and tear on the car going back and forth (even
though we live close!), gasoline costs, time advocating and
volunteering, white collared shirt, black skirt and dress shoes for the
chorus concert, homework supplies, food donations for various
activities, fund raisers, etc.
To keep our homeschooling costs down, we used the library extensively as
well as free curriculum on the internet. If we had to purchase items we
looked on ebay, other used book sites and for on-line coupons.
Tonya
Tonya wrote:
>
> As a point of reference, the first year we homeschooled C, we had her at
> home and her younger sister in school. Overall (including buying milk
> for lunches, school supplies, contributions for field trip costs, room
> parent expenses, party supplies, contribution for teacher gifts,
> backpack, lunchbox, replacement for stolen mittens, participation fees
> for different school activities, etc.) it cost $435.00 more to have her
> in school than to homeschool the eldest! And that cost differential
> didn't include the wear and tear on the car going back and forth (even
> though we live close!), gasoline costs, time advocating and
> volunteering, white collared shirt, black skirt and dress shoes for the
> chorus concert, homework supplies, food donations for various
> activities, fund raisers, etc.>>>>
I remember being with Tonya the day she calculated all this on a paper
napkin in the coffee shop!! We were astounded when she added up the costs of
keeping a child in the supposedly "free" public school!
I just found this article when I was looking on Hoagies for something
else...
thought this might be relevant to your original question.
Perfectionism and the Highly Gifted Child
by Shaun Hately
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/perfectionHG.htm
Anonymous Poster #2 wrote:
>
> while i can understand that home schooling helps the child for the now. It has
> to negative effects in general. >>>>>
Actually, studies on the long-term progress of homeschoolers are just now
beginning to be done. Several longitudinal studies of how homeschoolers fare
in adolescence and adult life have been or are being completed, and look
very promising. The largest study to date is not finished yet, but will be
available later this fall. In general, the studies so far show that
homeschooled students are more likely to get high grades in college and more
likely to be involved in civic and community activities and volunteer work
than students who were not homeschooled. (Interestingly, similar results
have been obtained on long-term studies at Johns Hopkins of conventionally
schooled accelerated gifted students vs. those of equal ability who were not
accelerated, from the Talent Search pool of students -- the accelerated
students were *more* likely to have higher college grades and to participate
more in social, extracurricular, civic, and community activities than those
of equal ability who did not accelerate).
Anonymous Poster #2 continued:
>
> I was wondering if you had any long term strategies to prevent the following
> situations, on the cause and effects of home schooling.
>
> 1. It teaches the children that its not ok to be a little bored, or a little
> frustrated, which is part of life in general, and that the pattern is not
> repeated later on in life.>>>>>
With gifted students, and particularly highly to profoundly gifted students,
we are not talking about just a "little bored" or a "little frustrated." We
are talking about children who have mastered most of the content for the
year before they have even opened their books in September.
Leta Hollingworth, back in the 1930s, wrote that ³In the ordinary elementary
school situation children of 140 IQ waste half of their time. Those above
170 IQ waste practically all of their time. With little to do, how can these
children develop power of sustained effort, respect for the task, or habits
of steady work?² (Hollingworth, L. S., 1942. Children Above 180 IQ.
Yonkers-on-Hudson: World Book, p. 299).
Unfortunately, not much has changed since Leta's time (in fact, things may
have gotten worse -- not only has the curriculum been dumbed down since
then, but schools are much less likely to allow a child to accelerate than
they were in the 1930s).
A recent study done at the National Research Center for the Gifted and
Talented at the University of Connecticut found that gifted students often
knew half of the required material, in *September*, before they even opened
their textbooks. This study is:
"Why Not Let High Ability Students Start School in January? The Curriculum
Compacting Study" by Reis, S. M., Westberg, K. L., Kulikowich, J., & others
You can read the abstract and conclusions of the study here:
http://www.gifted.uconn.edu/reiswest.html
And you can order a copy of the study from the University of Connecticut.
One of the most important conclusions of the study was this:
"When teachers eliminated as much as 50% of the regular curriculum for
gifted students, no differences in the out-of-level post achievement test
results between treatment and control groups were found in reading, math
computation, social studies, and spelling."
This was a study of mostly moderately gifted students, not highly to
profoundly gifted ones.
So it is clear that we are not talking about just "a little bored." We are
talking about students who have mastered half to three-quarters of the
curriculum *before the school year even starts* and who are, essentially,
not appropriately placed to begin with. We would not think of asking an
average child to sit in a classroom day after day, with no modifications, to
do work two or three years below his or her instructional level. Nor would
we ask a child with mental retardation to sit in a classroom, day after day,
with no modifications, and do work that is three or four years above his or
her functional level, with no complaints and no assistance. We should not
ask these things of gifted children, either. We should, instead, provide
them -- like every other child -- a developmentally appropriate curriculum
where they have as much chance to learn and to make a year's academic
progress as any other child in the school system.
Anonymous Poster #2 continued:
<<<<Which just increases the depression, self harm, and
> non coping skills later on in life, and its probably more destructive to the
> gifted person in general in the long term. Road rage, theft, murder, drugs,
> alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, all have psychological triggers in the
> areas of impatient.>>>>
I do not see any research evidence at all for the above amongst
homeschoolers. As noted, most of the relatively new longitudinal studies on
homeschooled children grown up show them to be model citizens contributing
to their families and society.
And there is certainly *plenty* of opportunity to learn patience at home and
out in the community!
I will respond to the rest of Anonymous Poster #2's post in a second e-mail,
since this one is getting to be too long.
I find the same problem with materials developed specifically for
> homeschooling science. Much of what is out there just isn't very good. Of
> all the things on the homeschooling market, gifted kids seem to respond best
> to the very rigorous Apologia Science program for grades 7 to 12 (no
> surprise, it was developed by a former teacher at the Illinois School of
> Math and Science, a public residential governors' school for highly gifted
> high school kids). However, Apologia Science is a distinctly Christian
> curriculum, so it won't be everyone's first choice.
Kathi,
What do you think of Singapore's high school science materials? We're thinking
of using the O level Chemistry book.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Special Needs Educational Advisor
mailto:mwarshaw@uniquelygifted.org
http://uniquelygifted.org
> But I'm wondering what the trends are for the very competitive universities?
> Do homeschoolers have better luck with admittance if they have a degree from
> a correspondence school such as the American School
> http://www.americanschoolofcorr.com/ or a homeschool transcript?>>>>
>
> No, it doesn't matter. In fact, some competitive colleges are even more
> interested in the "unusual" way of doing things (via homeschooling, or some
> of the very creative and a bit quirky private and alternative high schools)
> than they are in kids who just do the status quo! They are looking for a
> diverse student body.
It's funny, but from what I've seen, homeschoolers with homeschool transcripts
have much more difficulty with state universities than with competitive private
colleges - the public schools tend to be much more rigid in their admissions
criteria.
M
--
Meredith Warshaw, M.S.S., M.A.
Lorina wrote:
>
> It seems impossible to satiate his need to know more. Last summer When he
> said that he wanted to learn to read, (He had just turned 2) I just thought
> it was a passing fling. This summer I have been forced to comply and am
> obviously not going fast enough, since he seems to get bored half way
> through each 15 minute lesson. Whereas when interested he can normally stay
> concentrated for long periods of time. I chose upon recommendation the book
> "Teach your child to read in 100 easy lessons" by Engelmann, Haddox and
> Bruner. T is quickly irritated with the repetitions and so I have been
> leaving time in between and he retains everything perfectly. This space in
> between is not recommended by the authors. I have also had to let him see
> that he could actually use the information that he's learned thus far to
> begin to read and that has helped his motivation with the program. Does
> anyone know about this method and can any one help me with some tips on how
> to go about this? On the otherhand after reading some of the posts regarding
> a more relaxed approach to homeschooling I feel much better about the many
> times T just is able to play for much of the day with or without friends and
> disappear into a 2 or 3 way or more dialogues with his playthings or any
> other household/garden objects. I do see how he puts to use all of the
> things he is learning.>>>>
Lorina, "100 easy lessons" sort of puts everything in bite-size pieces -- it
might be going too slow for him when he wants to see the big picture!!!
You might want to try the "Bob Books". They use a similar phonetic approach
to reading, but after each series of little lessons, the child is able to
read a tiny child-size book, and they feel a real sense of accomplishment.
The "Bob Books" aren't very expensive, either.
An homeschool
e-group I belong to once did a survey of "in your experience what are the
most important "bare minimum" tools for "effective"
homeschooling"
The responses
varied some (from one extreme to the other)... but the majority agreed that it
was essential to have the following:
1. A math
resource that met the goals of the parent's homeschooling philosophy
and matched with the learning style of the child (whether it be
manipulative-based programs, workbook-based learning, real-life math exposure,
or curriculum based-learning)
2. A
library card
3. An
internet connection (preferably at home, but the public computers at the
library can be a solution)
4. A
functioning automobile (or really good public transportation)
Most agreed that
without any one of these items, they would not be able to homeschool as
effectively as they would like. Not too tall a list, really :-)
Hope this helps
-julie
Tonya wrote:
>Of course, with the internet, if you have an internet connection, is IS
>possible to homeschool your child nearly for free (except for the cost of
>your internet connection). There is an incredible number of very high
>quality educational materials out there for free on the internet.
>
>
As a point of reference, the first year we homeschooled C, we had her at
home and her younger sister in school. Overall (including buying milk
for lunches, school supplies, contributions for field trip costs, room
parent expenses, party supplies, contribution for teacher gifts,
backpack, lunchbox, replacement for stolen mittens, participation fees
for different school activities, etc.) it cost $435.00 more to have her
in school than to homeschool the eldest! And that cost differential
didn't include the wear and tear on the car going back and forth (even
though we live close!), gasoline costs, time advocating and
volunteering, white collared shirt, black skirt and dress shoes for the
chorus concert, homework supplies, food donations for various
activities, fund raisers, etc.
To keep our homeschooling costs down, we used the library extensively as
well as free curriculum on the internet. If we had to purchase items we
looked on ebay, other used book sites and for on-line coupons.
Tonya
Meredith asked:
> What do you think of Singapore's high school science materials? We're
> thinking
> of using the O level Chemistry book.>>>>
You are asking the wrong person, Meredith! Not only have I not seen the
Singapore science materials, but I never took chemistry myself! (except
glaze chemistry, as a ceramics major in college!!!)
Anyone else out there who could answer Meredith's question?
Meredith wrote:
> It's funny, but from what I've seen, homeschoolers with homeschool transcripts
> have much more difficulty with state universities than with competitive
> private
> colleges - the public schools tend to be much more rigid in their admissions
> criteria.>>>>
I'll second this observation. It's ironic that a homeschooled child might
have more trouble getting into Ye Olde State University than Harvard, but
I've seen it happen several times (in one celebrated case, a NH homeschooled
student was accepted at Harvard, but *rejected* at the University of New
Hampshire! when UNH heard about the Harvard acceptance, they decided to
accept her after all. . .)
(our
school uses the Foss science
program, which is very rigorous, very hands-on, and wildly popular with our
kids -- even the gifted kids didn't want any science enrichment classes that
took them out of their regular science classes, so we just let them go with
the regular program!)
Kathi...could you tell us more about this? I've never heard of this! And yet you say kids identified at your school want nothing else! WOW! Most gt science kids want more and more! So what do you recommend? If I look into this..probably for next year as this year is pretty booked out...what grade level should I look at for a current 5th grader? The 5-6 program or the "middle school program" (I looked it up on the web and it looks like individulas can order this.)
I guess another question to go along with this one is....I guess my desire to look into this stems from my own personal feeling that I should be presenting a very "balanced-packaged-science curriculum." I am certainly open to the idea that "this is my problem" and there is no need to do that with a kid like mine who loves science. He's doing some very specific things now. Nature study, Robotics and Physics. What's your advice?
And thanks very much for doing this!
Lee
Hi Kathi,
I want to thank you so much for you help and advice also to the others on
the list who have emailed me off list - I will get to you all soon.
Kathi, I hope I have time for one more question.
Do you know of any other helpful support/websites etc that I may read
regarding preschool age children working above their age peers?
Thank you again
Jane
Thank you Kathi for your prompt response, Im still awake;-} I haven't heard
of the Bob books, who puts them out?
|
Thank you Kathi for your prompt response, Im still awake;-} I
haven't heard
of the Bob books, who puts them out?
Not sure...but they are readily available...they are not obscure. B
& N carries them for example as well as most libraries.!
|
I wrote:
<<<<(our
school uses the Foss science
program, which is very rigorous, very hands-on, and wildly popular with our
kids -- even the gifted kids didn't want any science enrichment classes that
took them out of their regular science classes, so we just let them go with
the regular program!)>>>>>>
And Leanne added:
<<<<<Kathi...could you tell us more about this? I've never
heard of this! And yet you say kids identified at your school want
nothing else! WOW! Most gt science kids want more and more!
So what do you recommend? If I look into this..probably for next
year as this year is pretty booked out...what grade level should I look at for
a current 5th grader? The 5-6 program or the "middle school
program" (I looked it up on the web and it looks like individulas can
order this.)>>>>>
It is a rigorous, excellent
hands-on science program. For your son, Leanne, you may as well get the
middle school level rather than the 5/6 level! :-)
The gifted kids at my school expressly told me they did NOT want to leave
science class for gifted science enrichment (I was prepared to offer such a
class).
Leanne added:
>>>>I guess another question to go along with this one is....I
guess my desire to look into this stems from my own personal feeling that I
should be presenting a very "balanced-packaged-science curriculum."
I am certainly open to the idea that "this is my problem"
and there is no need to do that with a kid like mine who loves science.
He's doing some very specific things now. Nature study, Robotics
and Physics. What's your advice?>>>>
That sounds fine to me for
now, Leanne, but you really might like the Foss science kits if you want
something more structured.
--- Kathi Kearney <kkearney@midcoast.com> wrote:
> Lorina wrote:
> >
> > It seems impossible to satiate his need to know more. Last summer
> When he
> > said that he wanted to learn to read, (He had just turned 2) I just
> thought
> > it was a passing fling.
I had your situation. I first got a series of emergent readers from
Modern Curriculum Press. These were great, but expensive. The best
set of readers is very old and on every library shelf. There are about
30 in the series by Margaret Hilert - not sure if Hillert is one "l "
or two. Excellent. They use sight words in beautifully illustrated
story THAT MAKES SENSE. Try them. I just got a long thank-you from
someone based on this recommendation. At least look through them. DD
could read words before two. If it weren't for Kathy, we wouldn't have
known she was pg. (Thanks, Kathy.)
Sheila
Bob Books are published by scholastic books and are available through their
website. Very effective!
--- Bridget
> Thank you Kathi for your prompt response, Im still awake;-} I haven't
heard
> of the Bob books, who puts them out?
>
Thank you Sheila.
I will take a look at them. I am not sure how available they will be in
Dutch libraries but it won't hurt to look, and perhaps Amazon or something
similar has some used copies for sale. I am half-way through my second
pregnancy and don't really plan on making the trip back to the States until
the summer.
Lorina
hi Kathy,
I hope I am not too late to ask this question and it may have already been
answered... I am too far behind to be able to check in time.
Can you direct me to any research on homeschooled children. Any institution
to start with maybe eg Hollingworth?
I am interested in general as well as specifically with gifted children and
especially anything that would help our home ed association to advocate in
various situations.
Thank you
Fly (NSW, Australia)
Hi Bridget,
That is a good article. Thanks!
Bridget wrote:
>
> I just found this article when I was looking on Hoagies
> for something else...
>
> thought this might be relevant to your original question.
>
> Perfectionism and the Highly Gifted Child
> by Shaun Hately
> http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/perfectionHG.htm
Mary
I (finally!) found this link on Hoagies! IQ Comparison Site
http://members.shaw.ca/delajara/
--- Bridget
hi Bridget,
Bridget wrote:
> I never thought of a one-on-one tutorial for her.
> I think I'll look into that!
It's worked out really well for us. My daughter has tutors for math and
Latin.
It's nice to have a teacher who loves the subject they're teaching.
Their enthusiasm makes the lesson so much more enjoyable. And the
teacher appreciates a student who enjoys the subject they are teaching.
In our homeschooling that's why my daughter takes classes, because she's
interested in the subject, not because it's required. So the energy goes
both ways!
It's easier for the student to ask questions and get concepts clarified
when they are working one-on-one. And a gifted student can work at their
own pace, which is usually faster than the pace of a group class.
There's no wasted time to get bored, and formal tests aren't necessary
unless you want them. The tutors give my daughter homework to do during
the week. Not a lot, just enough to be sure she understands and gets
some practice. She brings her work in the following week to review with
her tutor. If she has questions about the math problems or Latin
translation they go over her questions. Otherwise, they just move on.
In re-reading what I just typed I realize that these benefits may seem
obvious, but I didn't expect them when I was looking for tutors. I just
knew I wasn't the best person to teach my daughter those subjects.
> I would like this to be a more positive
> experience, and a 'switch' would be good,
> and much preferable to a 'quit'. Thanks! :-)
I agree! I hope you can find a tutor she really "clicks" with.
Best wishes,
Mary
What does a good transcript look like? Is it just a list of course credit,
or does one need to back it up with other detail. I didn't really mean to be
doing high school level stuff with my dd11, except science, but I guess it
was inevitable. I guess I will need to look over the scope and sequence of
say, high school world history and see what we're doing in comparison.
I must say that we are only three weeks into this and it's very surprising.
I find myself bouncing between "we're not getting enough done" and amazement
at what she seems to know already. I wish we could just explore, but we're
under pressure to do things in an organized fashion as dh is only allowing
this experiment for one year, and certainly she'll go to high school, if not
jr. high.
Thanks so much to Kathi and everyone for all the resources and ideas!
Trina
> I've worked with several homeschooled kids who got themselves into
> Ivy
> League colleges. Some of them didn't even have a traditional
> transcript,
> they had more of a narrative transcript with work samples!
>
I personally know the mother of a totally homschooled boy who graduated
from the U. Of Chicago - my dd went there, and it is something like the
top 5% of the world.
Sheila
Anonymous Poster #2 wrote:
> 2. When you take a child out of school into home schooling, the other
> students, school and the education system suffer, as well as the gifted
> community suffer. Because the school no longer has to deal with the gifted
> child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under the table because they
> dont have to deal with it.>>>>>
Sometimes this is true. I have heard too many examples over the years where
parents went to the school to try to advocate for their gifted child to get
accelerated or enriched coursework or adaptations and differentiation in the
regular classroom, and were brushed off -- literally -- and *told*, by
public school officials, to homeschool instead.
Anonymous Poster #2 continued:
<<<<<It reduces Gifted lobbying and political evidence
> because there numbers are too low to justify any change to the current system,
> because with out the evidence of the numbers and needs of a gifted segment of
> the population being recognized being within the system - then the system has
> no basis from which to change.>>>>
The "system" knows full well how many gifted children there are. There have
been several federally funded studies of gifted children and the state of
gifted education over the last 50 years. These studies show that gifted
youth represent somewhere between 3% and 7% of the school-age population.
The most recent study (1993) was called "National Excellence: A Case for
Developing America's Talent" and is available in its entirety at this site:
http://mirror.eschina.bnu.edu.cn/Mirror/ed.gov/www.ed.gov/pubs/DevTalent/ind
ex.html
Anonymous Poster #2 continued:
<<<<<And finally the other class mates, and teachers
> lose the benefit of knowing a gifted person, who could inspire them, teach
> them, and by example help make the school environment a much better place by
> example, by there inspiration and extended mental ability - teach others by
> demonstration and example.>>>>>>
It is not the purpose of the gifted child -- or any other child -- to be in
school primarily to meet the needs of other students or to "help make the
school environment a much better place by example" or to "teach others by
demonstration and example" (in fact, we pay certified TEACHERS to teach, not
children!) To suggest that gifted children should be in school primarily to
do these things, rather than to be there primarily to get an education like
all other children are permitted to get, is to exploit the gifted child.
Anonymous Poster #2 wrote:
> In isolated areas and special medical conditions I can understand home
> schooling, but in urban areas and areas of high resource and population is not
> the selfishness of the here and now destructive to the gifted person and the
> gifted community in the long term.>>>>
First of all, it isn't "selfishness" for a family of a gifted child to want
the same opportunity for an appropriate education as every other child is
entitled to in school. Most schools are designed around the needs of
typically developing children within the average range of ability. Thus, for
all intents and purposes, the system has been designed for these children,
who represent by far the largest population in our schools.
Children with disabilities have the full force of both federal and state law
behind them, plus large amounts of federal and state monies, requiring
schools to adapt the program for typical students to meet the individual
instructional needs of children with disabilities.
Gifted children have no such legal protection for an appropriate education
in most states, and none at the federal level.
I do not believe it is "selfish" for families of gifted children to want the
same opportunity for a free and appropriate public education that is claimed
to be offered to all other children. Intellectual giftedness is an
exceptionality the same as is mental retardation (or developmental
disabilities, depending on the term used in your state's law).
Secondly, families in urban areas sometimes choose to homeschool because of
safety issues that have not been dealt with appropriately at the local
school level. This includes bullying and drug use, which is occasionally
rampant in some urban and suburban schools. A parent has the responsibility
to keep his or her child safe. (I know there are individuals on this list
who can speak to this point, as it was one of the reasons they chose to
homeschool, and I invite them to do so).
Anonymous Poster #2 continued:
> I guess my 2nd question is how do you lobby for resources, when you hide the
> problem and reject society in such a way, that society in general does not
> decide to reject you back. ( ie you do it to use so we do it back to you) ?
> How do you prove that the invisible exists and needs funding, resourses ?>>>>
In the first place, as discussed above, the problem is far from "invisible"
-- three federal studies in the last 50 years have made the extent of the
gifted population abundantly clear.
Secondly, and very interestingly, what has happened in some areas with what
our state gifted consultant called "the customers are leaving" phenomenon,
with gifted children leaving conventional schools for homeschooling, is that
some states *have* gotten more responsive. (Sometimes this is for strictly
fiscal or political, and not altruistic, reasons on the part of the state.)
For instance, Maine passed the "Public School Access Law" allowing
homeschooled students to participate in public school classes and
extracurricular activities -- and coincidentally, for local schools to
receive partial state subsidy funds for these students. Many states with
charter school laws have established public "virtual" online charter
schools, where students do their work at home but are allowed to move at
their own pace, without the restrictions on acceleration that many
traditional public (and private) schools often have. The growth of these
"virtual charters" has been quite phenomenal over the past five years, and
for good or ill, the marketers for the virtual charters often specifically
target homeschooling families.
Thirdly, in an era of high stakes state assessment testing and the testing
required by the No Child Left Behind law, schools are finally realizing that
they need the test scores of gifted students. By offering virtual charters
and other public school alternative programs, as well as gifted programs,
they are more likely to attract such students back into the system (and get
their high test scores). Like I said, none of this is particularly
altruistic, but it has resulted in some places in public educational options
for gifted students that were not there before there was such an "exodus" of
gifted students out of conventional schools for homeschooling.
I do know many homeschooling parents of gifted children who are very active
lobbyists for state and local gifted education programming. In fact, if
appropriate programs were available for gifted students in school, I believe
that many parents who are now homeschooling gifted kids would re-enter their
children into school.
As far as lobbying for gifted education is concerned, I think we can look at
the 100-year history of lobbying and advocacy work on the part of many
individuals and organizations across the century, and see that not much has
changed for gifted children in school. For whatever reasons -- financial,
social, or political -- our nation has chosen to place the educational needs
of our most gifted youth as a low priority. I believe this will not change
until we have a federal law that requires public schools to provide a "free
and appropriate education" to gifted children, the same way as it provides
that protection to all other exceptional children. We have had 100 years of
"permissive" legislation, rather than a mandate, to little avail. The case
of Maine's legislative mandate is a lesson in point: in 1985, our state
passed a state mandate for gifted education. In order to get the bill
through the legislature, we had to agree on a five-year phase-in plan,
rather than immediate implementation. During the five-year phase-in plan,
the state hit an economic slowdown, and waiver upon waiver was allowed to
school districts. When the economy improved, schools were still allowed
waivers. Waivers are still in effect, 18 years later. And today, Maine
actually has *fewer* gifted programs in schools than it had before the
mandate was passed in the mid-1980s. I call that breaking faith with those
parents and teachers who worked so hard within the system to get than
mandate passed in the first place, and a massive breaking of faith with
almost two generations of gifted children in this state. And I believe this
is not going to really change, nationwide, until we have federal
legislation. If there was no federal legislation for special education for
other exceptionalities, I doubt that most states would be meeting the needs
of these children in public schools, either (especially in economic
slowdowns). It took massive parent advocacy at the federal level to assure
the educational rights of children with disabilities, and it will probably
take the same thing to assure appropriate public education for gifted
children in this country. I just hope it does not take the next 50 years.
But parents have a direct responsibility (legally and ethically) to their
*own* children first, not to the educational "system" at large. Their child
only has one childhood. They cannot wait for 18 years, or 50 years, for the
state and federal governments to decide whether or not they are going to
meet the educational needs of gifted students. The families in Maine who
helped pass the gifted mandate have children who are now all grown up. What
good did that mandate -- with its 18 years' worth of waivers from it offered
to school districts -- do for them? And they lobbied hard, and did
everything right. If they waited for the mandate to go into effect, they are
still waiting, and their children are grown.
If parents of gifted children need to homeschool, they should be able to do
so, without difficulty or criticism. The educational system in this country
has had ample opportunity for the past 100 years to meet the needs of these
students, and the system has decided, for the most part, that it has other
priorities instead.
Yes, we should continue to lobby for, and work for, change. But given the
track record of schools, states, and the federal government over the past
100 years, in order to provide a gifted child with an appropriate education
and to mitigate the emotional effects of vastly inappropriate placements,
homeschooling can be an excellent option. For some children and families, it
has been a literal lifesaver.
Anonymous Poster #3 wrote:
> I am always fearful that my efforts to make things better in the classroom for
> my child may backfire and recognizing the teacher is also human and may take
> things out on my child - directly or indirectly, consciencously or not-
> consciencely - what have other parents done if this happens? >>>>>
Some parents will go to the teacher's supervisor and ask for help in solving
the problem, if the teacher has not been responsive. Such behavior on the
part of a teacher is not very professional, but it does happen on occasion.
Jane asked:
>
> Do you know of any other helpful support/websites etc that I may read
> regarding preschool age children working above their age peers?>>>>
Not a website, but an excellent older book: "Young Gifted Children" by Wendy
Roedell (published by Teachers College Press).
You might want to try the "Bob Books". They use a similar phonetic
> approach
> to reading, but after each series of little lessons, the child is
> able to
> read a tiny child-size book, and they feel a real sense of
> accomplishment.
Kathy,
I have to say that my pglets did not care for Bob Books. They wanted
to read something that meant something. I bought Bob Books, and I
still say Margaret Hillert is better - the books look old and abused at
the library so are often ignored.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0813655110/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/
102-7622268-7630537
Of course, my little one was EXTREME in her desire to learn to read -
EXTREME!
Sheila
Hi
Kathi
You
wrote
"Actually,
studies on the long-term progress of homeschoolers are just now
beginning to be done. Several longitudinal studies of how homeschoolers fare
in adolescence and adult life have been or are being completed, and look
very promising. The largest study to date is not finished yet, but will be
available later this fall"
Could
you give us more details on these studies - names of the studies, how do
we find them etc? I'd be very interested to read anything like this.
In
case I don't connect again I'd like to say a huge thankyou to Kathi, Sally and
all posters. What an informative conference.
Janelle
Lorina, Bob Books are available from Scholastic or on amazon.com or at
Barnes and Noble. They are quite inexpensive! And you should be able to
order them online from the Netherlands.
This happened to us. It was a private school, and dh
was president of the board of directors. We requested
some minor modifications to accommodate our son's
needs, and the teacher took it as a personal insult;
she informed my dh that she would no longer speak to
me until I apologized for requesting these -- very
minor! -- changes. The negative reports about our son
definitely increased in intensity and frequency as a
result.
The tone at the school became so shrill that -- you
guessed it -- we removed our children from the school
and commenced home schooling. I would like to think
that in other situations, you would have other
options, but I don't know.
SarahG
--- Kathi Kearney <kkearney@midcoast.com> wrote:
> Anonymous Poster #3 wrote:
>
>
> > I am always fearful that my efforts to make things
> better in the classroom for
> > my child may backfire and recognizing the teacher
> is also human and may take
> > things out on my child - directly or indirectly,
> consciencously or not-
> > consciencely - what have other parents done if
> this happens? >>>>>
>
> Some parents will go to the teacher's supervisor and
> ask for help in solving
> the problem, if the teacher has not been responsive.
> Such behavior on the
> part of a teacher is not very professional, but it
> does happen on occasion.
>
Fly wrote:
> Can you direct me to any research on homeschooled children. Any institution
> to start with maybe eg Hollingworth?
>
> I am interested in general as well as specifically with gifted children and
> especially anything that would help our home ed association to advocate in
> various situations.>>>>
I would strongly recommend that you go to the National Home Education
Research Institute's website:
http://www.nheri.org
and go to the online store and order the "Home Centered Learning Annotated
Bibliography". This provides abstracts of more than 1400 research studies
that have been done by nonprofit organizations, colleges and universities,
masters and doctoral students, state governments, and individuals over the
past 20 years. For the most part, even though NHERI's founder is strongly
associated with religious homeschooling, the studies in the annotated
bibliography don't reflect that bias -- they are, instead, a true compendium
of much of the research that is out there, from a wide variety of
perspectives. From the bibliography, you will be able to select then locate
the studies most relevant to your needs.
The description of the bibliography is here, and it only costs $14:
http://www.nheri.org/store/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=6&category_id=83658
e7e3a874568ed14ed7b6dd5b973
The largest study yet done of homeschoolers (20,700 of them!) was conducted
by Lawrence Rudner, and is available online at:
http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/
While there are some limitations to this study -- the students were
predominantly homeschooling for religious reasons and are predominantly
evangelical Christian Protestants -- it is the largest study ever done of
homeschooled kids. (This was the study that showed that about 23% of the
students were enrolled in one or more grades higher than their chronological
age would predict, and were given the achievement test that matched their
grade placement, not their age. Which brings up, in my mind, a *most*
interesting, but unanswered, research question -- were 23% of the students
in this study gifted students, or does something about homeschooling allow
more average students who are homeschooling to achieve like gifted students
in conventional school settings?)
Trina wrote:
> What does a good transcript look like? Is it just a list of course credit,
> or does one need to back it up with other detail. I didn't really mean to be
> doing high school level stuff with my dd11, except science, but I guess it
> was inevitable. I guess I will need to look over the scope and sequence of
> say, high school world history and see what we're doing in comparison.>>>>
High school transcripts out there in public and private schools run the
gamut, from simply a list of courses taken and grades received, to
descriptions of the courses attached to grades, to narrative reports of
progress and portfolios.
So it is really up to you how you put together a transcript. A sample,
simple one is on the donnayoung.org site, and the Callihans' book contains
some different examples, as well. You can also buy whole books that give you
different transcript options. Inge Cannon also runs a "Transcript Boot Camp"
workshop that she presents in different areas around the country; I think
she's pretty informative. She also sells (as do others) transcript software.
One caution, especially with a gifted child -- some books and workshops on
transcripts are still using the old Carnegie units (which a high school
principal friend of mine calls "butt in seat time" LOL!) and indicate that a
child must spend x-number of hours at the course in order to receive credit.
You don't need to do this. You can just prove your child has mastered the
material then give him or her credit. A lot of public and private schools
don't use "butt in seat time" either to award credit anymore.
You may want to read up on the sensitivities of a gifted child; a good
place to start is http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/ lots and lots of info!
Your child may be reading more into the situation than is there. I know
when I was teaching, and a PG child didn't know something, I smiled- I had
found a challenge for him/her! And when one girl came back to school the
next day and told me her mom had taught her the rest of the related
concepts, I WAS very disappointed. Also, I am sure I didn't always look
happy when a child introduced new info during a lesson- not because I was
angry, but because I was busy processing: where is this going? Will I lose
A & J completely during this tangent? How can I work some of this into what
I was already going to cover? And what is K doing behind that book? etc.,
etc.
However, it sounds just as likely that the teacher is being unkind. LOTS of
people resent gifted kids, even some teachers. Talk to the teacher and get
a feel for her/his feelings about your child. If the attitudes are
negative, try to get your child into a different class, telling the
principal why (using examples of what the teacher said). It is very
destructive for a child to be under the tutelage of an unkind (or even
unsympathetic) teacher. Good luck!
--- Bridget
>
> Hi Kathi,
>
> I am always fearful that my efforts to make things better in the
classroom for
> my child may backfire and recognizing the teacher is also human and may
take
> things out on my child - directly or indirectly, consciencously or not-
> consciencely - what have other parents done if this happens?
>
> My child is like a microscope in the emotional area and even though the
words
> from the teacher may be totally fine - it is the feeling which exists
that my
> child can easily pick up on i.e. it just feels like the teacher resents
me
> because you talked to him/her about my need for different work. Or why
does
> the teacher feel badly when I know more about a subject than he or she
does,
> yet the teacher feels happy when I don't know something. How can I talk
to the
> teacher about such. i.e. your ambievelance or different emotions are
picked up
> very readily by my child - how can my child and you as his/her teacher
resolve
> the emotional parts in a safe setting?
>
> Any teachers who can help me know, what would be most appreciated from
> receiving such information about a child in the elementary school age
group
> from a parent?
>
I wrote
"Actually, studies on the long-term progress of homeschoolers are just now
beginning to be done. Several longitudinal studies of how homeschoolers fare
in adolescence and adult life have been or are being completed, and look
very promising. The largest study to date is not finished yet, but will be
available later this fall"
Then Janelle added:
<<<<Could you give us more details on these studies - names of the
studies, how do we find them etc? I'd be very interested to read anything
like this.>>>>
Linda Dobson has published a book called "Homeschoolers' Success
Stories" (Prima Publishing) which are case studies of grown-up
homeschoolers.
Brian Ray, of the National Home Education Research Institute, is one of several
researchers conducting a major study of grown-up homeschoolers (which I expect
will include some statistical research as well as case study data). This study
will be large, and will be out sometime in the next few weeks.
I am beginning a study of grown-up gifted homeschoolers this year. It will
include a number of the gifted homeschooled children I worked with in the late
1970s through the late 1980s, as well as some children I did not work with
directly. If enough "children" (now grownups) are available for the study,
I will do some statistical analyses as well as several indepth case studies.
If anyone has grownup homeschooled gifted children who might like to be part of
this study, you may contact me privately!
Another free transcript site I read about recently (haven't used
it:Homeschool Tracker - Free download for your lesson planning and
record-keeping. http://www.thegentiles.com/tghomesoft/default.aspx
--- Bridget
I would like to thank all of you for your participation in this conference!
I need to close the conference now, because I must get up very early in the
morning, and I won't have access to this e-mail account again til late on
Wednesday night.
I would like to encourage everyone who is homeschooling a gifted child to
relax and enjoy the experience. . .it can be the experience of a lifetime,
even with all its ups and downs!
and thank you, Sally, for organizing and managing these conferences. I look
forward to the next one (where my typing fingers won't be so tired!)
I will read all responses that anyone sends after tonight, on Wednesday!
Kathi Kearney
Dear List Members:
What a wonderful conference!!!! THANK YOU Kathi - the phenomenal queen of
wordprocessing - typing extremely knowledgeable information filled responses
and providing a wonderful outline focusing on Homeschooling The Gifted for the
past three days.
I was going to tell you that your laptop sent a private SOS to me - asking
when this conference was ending - something about the keyboard and its usage?
LOL Now your fingers can take a R & R, which your laptop will be thrilled
about:)
Also - to you the list members, whom this list would not exist without your
participation. Thanks to you all.
Kind regards,
Sally_L
Conference Coordinator
> I would like to thank all of you for your participation in this conference!
>
> I need to close the conference now, because I must get up very early in the
> morning, and I won't have access to this e-mail account again til late on
> Wednesday night.
>
> I would like to encourage everyone who is homeschooling a gifted child to
> relax and enjoy the experience. . .it can be the experience of a lifetime,
> even with all its ups and downs!
>
> and thank you, Sally, for organizing and managing these conferences. I look
> forward to the next one (where my typing fingers won't be so tired!)
>
> I will read all responses that anyone sends after tonight, on Wednesday!
>
> Kathi Kearney
>
> Kay wrote:
>
> > However, I did find that the Davidson Institute gives a Talent Search
SAT
> > score cutoff for those not using a portfolio
> > (http://www.ditd.org/Public/article.aspx?cid=74). If a child's score was
> > above that could you assume he or she is at least borderline PG or is
that a
> > gross oversimplification? >>>
>
> I don't think it's a "gross oversimplification." I think it's probably
based
> on talent search research coming out of the various talent searches.
>
> Generally, the talent searches are looking for a score at or above the
> average for college bound high school juniors and seniors (approximately
530
> on either verbal or math) for their summer classes. I generally think of
> this as the highly gifted range (give or take 30 points or so).
>
> For Johns Hopkins' SET and SMPY, they are looking for scores above 630
> verbal or 700 math before age 13. If you have a child who scores that
high,
> it's very likely he or she is well into the profoundly gifted range.
>
> I believe that the researchers at Johns Hopkins have tried to do some
> research regarding IQ and SAT-I scores on the SET/SMPY groups, but it has
> been awhile since I have looked at that and I would have to hunt it up.
> Anyone else have this handy?
>
Johns Hopkins' SET has required a SAT score of > or = 700 on either verbal
or math since the SAT was recentered in 1995. In the paper linked below,
the SMPY people present an analysis of a group of pre-1995 SET students. On
the second page of this report, in the methods section, they back calculate
some IQ's based on the SAT scores of these SET participants.
http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/depts/psych_and_hd/smpy/Top1in10000.pdf
Bett
Kathi,
Sorry that I'm posting after the conference has closed, but I'm running
behind in reading my conference mail, and noticed you didn't get a reply to
your query regarding Open Learning.
Open Learning is distance university education available to anyone
anywhere, and costs about $AU450 ($US300) per subject (a full time
university load would be 8 subjects per year) plus overseas handling and
postage costs (if applicable) plus textbooks. It has no age or
prerequisite limits. It is possible to do an entire bachelor (3 year)
degree although the subject choice is limited.
We've just started it for my 13yo twins - one's doing WWII history, the
other philosophy and introductory genetics. We're using it to get some
university credit before applying for early entry into Uni here in
Sydney. It's at www.ola.edu.au.
Miriam
PS: Thanks for the conference, it's been very helpful.
>And after looking at it, I have a question for you: Is Open Learning
>Australia (the university program) open only to Australians, or may
>foreigners also use it?
Miriam, this sounds like a fabulous deal!! Is the US$300 price just for
Australians, or does it apply to foreigners, too?
Bett wrote:
> Johns Hopkins' SET has required a SAT score of > or = 700 on either verbal
> or math since the SAT was recentered in 1995. In the paper linked below,
> the SMPY people present an analysis of a group of pre-1995 SET students. On
> the second page of this report, in the methods section, they back calculate
> some IQ's based on the SAT scores of these SET participants.
> http://peabody.vanderbilt.edu/depts/psych_and_hd/smpy/Top1in10000.pdf>>>>
Thanks very much Bett for the update and for the link!!! (SAT-V used to be
630, I guess now it is 700)
Anyway, those would be extremely high scores for any student -- but
especially for one under age 13.
Kathi,
I just looked it up in the handbook I've got here (it's from 2002 so it
might have changed slightly). If you're an Australian or New Zealand
citizen, you pay an extra $AU60 (USD40) pre subject if you're not in
Australia for postage etc. If you're also a citizen of somewhere else you
also pay an extra $AU120 per subject. So presuming you're a US citizen
living in the US, the cost would be about US$420 per subject plus books or
about $US3,300 per year (for a full time study load). Some of the subjects
(science especially) also have extra practicum costs to cover extra
materials. For Alex's current science course that was USD130 but included
the textbook.
So far it's working well for us - it's a great way to get my PG boys some
Uni education without having to jump all the admission hoops - especially
relevant for us since my boys have ADD and some Aspergers-type problems, so
they don't test or present well in traditional schooling type
surroundings. It's been such a hit that my kids are enjoying their Uni
studies far more than anything else we're doing schoolwork wise at present.
Miriam
I think that there is a "glitch" in the AP program for homeschoolers.
While you do not have to take a course to take the test, you do have to have
someone order and administer the test. I was told, by the people at ETS when
I looked into this, that the most appropriate way to have this happen is to
ask a high school to order and administer the test. However, any particular
high school is under no obligation to do this. Unlike tests such as the SATs
which the collegeboard administers and you register via the collegeboard,
you would register for the AP test through a high school. So, basically, you
would have to have a high school which is willing to do this for you. They
also told me, at ETS, that if I find this to be a problem, they would try to
help me find such a high school.
J is taking Math BC, this year, as a homeschooler and I don't anticipate her
HS giving us trouble when we ask them to order the exam. However, I would
have liked J to take AP Music Theory but I don't think J's HS would be
favorably disposed to ordering and administering that exam and it may be
hard to find another HS willing to do that.
How do you homeschoolers handle the AP testing?
Leslie
I'm think I'm still grappling with the issue of whether E has a
distorted concept of her abilities, (Last night she said she wasn't good
enough to continue fencing.) and is giving up for that reason, or
whether competitive sports just aren't for her. If it's the former, then
I'd like her to realize how good she really is. If it's the latter, then
fine, there are plenty of other physical activities for her to engage in
that are non-competitive. I don't think she's clear on the reason why,
so I'm getting mixed messages.
_______________________
J had a really awful experience, in school, which caused her to asses her
writing ability as poor. She had shown great ability and promise. However,
this experience made her a reluctant writer. I tried a number of things to
demonstrate that she was not assessing herself realistically. The only thing
that really worked was forgetting about it. When J was ready, she got into
it again and discovered that she was a really good writer. That was years
later and I lamented the "loss" through all of those years. But I think I
did the right thing by "laying off." Actually, the reason I did that was
because I began to get the impression that the more attention I gave to J's
writing ability, the more she dug in her heels about being a "bad" writer.
Your child may be of a different temperament than mine. But I think that it
is worth considering that if you try too hard to get her to acknowledge her
ability, she may actually move further away from the direction you want her
to go. I would, if I were you, just let her know what her options are and
that whatever decision she makes is not "carved in stone."
Leslie
Would it be possible to have your local library order and proctor the exam
for you? We have not done AP through the Library but we do my dd's extended
studies exams through the library- I have been told that the local libraries
provide a proctor for free...at least ours does..
Diane
1. It teaches the children that
its not ok to be a little bored, or a little
frustrated, which is part of life in general, and that the pattern is not
repeated later on in life.
____________________
I
find this statement outrageous and indicative that the writer truly does not
comprehend the experience of the HG/EG/PG child. I have been told this by
educators, as well. My DH, who is a pschotherapist, says that he has never had
an adult patient come to him because s/he was not bored enough in school (or
life). I will add that my observation of my child's boredom in school was not
equivalent to the boredom and frustration I experience when I am waiting on a
long line. I can only compare it to being imprisoned for 6 hrs a day with
absolutely nothing to do and no permission to even move out of the seat or read
quietly at her desk, day after day after day. This is not "a little
bored"; this is sufferering through excrutiating torture. Many of our
children have not experienced loss. Should we kill one of their parents so they
could learn how to deal with this later on in life?
2.
When you take a child out of school into home schooling, the other
students, school and the education system suffer, as well as the gifted
community suffer. Because the school no longer has to deal with the
gifted
child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under the table because they
dont have to deal with it. It reduces Gifted lobbying and political evidence
because there numbers are too low to justify any change to the current system,
because with out the evidence of the numbers and needs of a gifted segment of
the population being recognized being within the system - then the system has
no basis from which to change. And finally the other class mates, and teachers
lose the benefit of knowing a gifted person, who could inspire them, teach
them, and by example help make the school environment a much better place by
example, by there inspiration and extended mental ability - teach others by
demonstration and example.
__________________________
You
have two issues here, and I will separate them.
a. The
loss to the class (Inspiration, etc.). There is considerable evidence that when
the most gifted children are *removed* from the classroom, the other children
thrive.
They
are actually held back from demonstrating their own abilities and mentally
intimidated from trying. The attention gifted children take from the teachers
result in less attention to other students. It really takes a special kind of
teacher, school and effort to be able to accomodate the most gifted in the
regular classroom without disadvantaging anyone. BTW, I have gone this route
and am very favorably disposed to it. However, it took me considerable effort
to make it work and I know that it would not have been possible in any given
school.
b.
Advocacy certainly suffers when the "problem" is removed. But,
I wonder about the wisdom of making your child suffer so that "right"
is advanced. I think you have to make your first priority that of making sure
your own child is OK. I certainly applied advocacy in my situation and
left my child in school. However, my first fight was to make sure my child was
OK. Only then was advocacy something I could participate in. To do
otherwise, would be irresponsible of me as a parent.
Leslie
Why don't you try asking them to order and administer both tests, and if
they say no to Music theory, call ETS back? There may not even be a problem
at all!
--- Bridget
I
reviewed the FOSS program for a school a few years ago. I concur that it is an
excellent program. Equally excellent, but different in some ways, is the
program developed by the Smithonian Inst. and the National Academy of Sciences
(the name escapes me), available from Carolina Biologicals. The
FOSS program offers more units and, I believe, goes up to a higher level of
learning. It includes some focus on environment. The other program is also a
hands-on, inquiry-based approach. I believe the units can be purchased
separately.
For
any science program that involves laboratory work, I would recommend that the
supervisor be well-versed in laboratory safety and know the way to safely
handle all chemicals involved and respond properly to laboratory
accidents. I am a biochemist and there are very few things I would want
my daughter to be doing at home, under my supervision, in the way of laboratory
science.
Leslie
-----Original Message-----
From: Leamcn@aol.com [mailto:Leamcn@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 8:43 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: Re: Finishing a grade level
In
a message dated 9/20/2003 8:07:52 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kkearney@midcoast.com writes:
(our
school uses the Foss science
program, which is very rigorous, very hands-on, and wildly popular with our
kids -- even the gifted kids didn't want any science enrichment classes that
took them out of their regular science classes, so we just let them go with
the regular program!)
Kathi...could you tell us more about this? I've never heard of
this! And yet you say kids identified at your school want nothing
else! WOW! Most gt science kids want more and more! So what
do you recommend? If I look into this..probably for next year as this year
is pretty booked out...what grade level should I look at for a current
5th grader? The 5-6 program or the "middle school program" (I
looked it up on the web and it looks like individulas can order this.)
I guess another question to go along with this one is....I guess my desire to
look into this stems from my own personal feeling that I should be presenting a
very "balanced-packaged-science curriculum." I am
certainly open to the idea that "this is my problem" and there is no
need to do that with a kid like mine who loves science. He's doing some
very specific things now. Nature study, Robotics and Physics.
What's your advice?
And thanks very much for doing this!
Lee
_____________________________________________________________________
I didn't really want to get into the specifics of our situation, just to
raise the issue that while you do not have to take an AP course to take the
test, taking the test has certain problems associated with it. That is, you
must get some agency, typically a high school according to ETS, to order and
administer the test. I believe that is true even if you take a standard AP
course, like those given through EPGY.
I our particular situation, the Dept Chairmen order and administer the tests
in J's high school. The Chairman of the Math Dept. is favorably disposed to
helping advanced students in many different ways. So I don't anticipate a
problem with this. But it is not trivial for a school to administer a test
they are not already giving, especially for one child. If the test involves
a listening component, it is more work for the test administrator. Also, AP
tests must be administered at specific times on specific days. That is, you
can't simply arrange for a proctor on the day the proctor is available. This
requires the HS to go to some amount of trouble on behalf of a student who
worked around them, not to mention the money to provide the proctor.
Leslie
> I reviewed the FOSS program for a school a few years ago. I concur
> that it
> is an excellent program. Equally excellent, but different in some
> ways, is
> the program developed by the Smithonian Inst. and the National
> Academy of
> Sciences (the name escapes me), available from Carolina Biologicals.
> The
> FOSS program offers more units and, I believe, goes up to a higher
> level of
> learning. It includes some focus on environment.
I switched to Carolina because they don't use Creationism as far as I
know. They have hser packages now. We got just enough owl pellets for
my two children. Delta has good packages, too.
I wouldn't suggest these for high school, but Wild Goose puts out nice
packages probably ok for Middle School that are very safe. We use
safety glasses and laboratory technique with my 9yos for practice.
We've made colloids, foam, goo...The explanation books are cool and
funny. Nice for moms on busy days.
Sheila
Hi Leslie,
I'm late catching up on the posts, but I wanted to mention to you that a
school/district's willingness to administer AP tests will quite possibly
vary from state to state depending on what they get paid. I live in Florida
and recently found out that my local district gets $700-800 for each person
that passes an AP test, even if he or she is home or private schooled. I
doubt if they will have any problem with administering a test for my child
when the time comes. Good luck!
Kay H
I have heard that home schoolers have substantial
problems with this--I think it would be best to make
arrrangements very early.
We are not homeschooling but my child did an AP exam
"early" on the side--e.g., child studied independently
and then took the exam at the high school. It was not
an exam they usually administered but they do have an
honors coordinator who is charged with making AP exam
arrangemnts, so it was not a big deal. No doubt it
helped that my child was enrolled at a lower level of
the same school district.
Leslie, assuming your school already administers AP
exams, asking them to administer one that they don't
normally give really shouldn't cause major problems,
even AP Music Theory. Someone is already handling the
administrative work. They are already setting up
proctors and may have another exam sitting at the same
time. (It is not unusual to sit for AP exam x and for
the student next to you be sitting for exam y--the
dates and times overlap.) And, after all, a regular
high school student could be doing this course through
the school as independent study--and they would
adminster the exam in that situation. And AP music is
not the only exam that requires head sets or has an
oral componenet--all the IB language exams do and I
beleive some of the AP foreign language exams do. It
shouldn't be that big a deal.
What is a big deal (I think) is asking a school that
does not already have an AP program to order and
administer an exam. I think there is lots of extra
paper work involved there.....and I know of at least
one homeschooler who found that to be an
insurmountable stumbling block.
CJ
--- "Kushner, Leslie" <LKushner@lij.edu> wrote:
> I think that there is a "glitch" in the AP program
> for homeschoolers.
>
> While you do not have to take a course to take the
> test, you do have to have
> someone order and administer the test. I was told,
> by the people at ETS when
> I looked into this, that the most appropriate way to
> have this happen is to
> ask a high school to order and administer the test.
> However, any particular
> high school is under no obligation to do this.
> Unlike tests such as the SATs
> which the collegeboard administers and you register
> via the collegeboard,
> you would register for the AP test through a high
> school. So, basically, you
> would have to have a high school which is willing to
> do this for you. They
> also told me, at ETS, that if I find this to be a
> problem, they would try to
> help me find such a high school.
>
> J is taking Math BC, this year, as a homeschooler
> and I don't anticipate her
> HS giving us trouble when we ask them to order the
> exam. However, I would
> have liked J to take AP Music Theory but I don't
> think J's HS would be
> favorably disposed to ordering and administering
> that exam and it may be
> hard to find another HS willing to do that.
>
> How do you homeschoolers handle the AP testing?
>
> Leslie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathi Kearney [mailto:kkearney@midcoast.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 11:50 AM
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Catching up - AP exams
>
>
> Carol wrote:
>
> > I have a query about early college/high school
> course for my 9 yo ds. We
> > began
> > hs'ing last year and quickly went through math
> levels - he will be
> starting
> > algebra next month. He reads avidly for our
> history lessons and seems to
> be
> > capable of at least high school level science - I
> believe almost college
> level
> > with some hand holding.
> >
> > I have been thinking about guiding him through AP
> level courses (perhaps
> > auditing a course at a local college) and
> documenting by signing him up
> for
> > the
> > AP tests. This way he would have some college
> credit and save us money in
> > tuition along the way.
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience with this sort of
> strategy or know of
> anyone
> > that has dome something similar?>>>>>
>
> The AP course descriptions are all free online at
> the College Board's
> website:
>
>
http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html
>
> It's not well known, but you do *not* have to be
> formally enrolled in an AP
> course in order to take the AP exam (however, if
> you'd LIKE to be enrolled
> in an AP course and don't have them in your area, or
> you have a young child
> or a homeschooled student, there are many online
> options for AP courses,
> including some specifically for homeschoolers).
>
> One other option is to take the CLEP tests instead.
> Many colleges and
> universities will give direct college credit for
> CLEP exams (but you have to
> check with the college you are interested in to see
> which ones they will
> accept, just the way you have to do with AP exams).
> With AP, colleges have
> the option of either issuing college credit, or
> offering "advanced standing"
> (no credit, but you get to get out of the intro
> courses in that area). With
> CLEP, the credit is awarded directly.
>
> David and Laurie Callihan's book contains an entire
> chapter on using the
> CLEP exams as part of homeschooling.
>
> The Callihans have two articles about CLEP exams and
> homeschooling on the
> crosswalk.com website, which provide very
> informative "how-tos". Here are
> the links:
>
>
http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1196781.html
>
>
http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1197970.html
>
> Both AP exams and CLEP exams can save a family a
> considerable amount of
> college tuition, if the child does well and the
> college you are interested
> in accepts the exams for actual college credit.
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>
> The information contained in this electronic e-mail
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> or entity to whom or to which it is addressed, and
> may contain
> information that is privileged, confidential and
> exempt from
> disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of
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> is not the intended recipient, or the employee or
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>
Leslie:
I arranged for a 9yo to take the BC Calc.( she was the only one) AP exam.
Her home school district was a tad bit reluctant. Why? they weren't
administrating the BC portion and thought it unfair to the other student's
only taking the AB segment to have a 9 yo taking the BC portion. Can you
believe. Any how it was taken to the Distinct Super's office.It does NOT
make good press to hinder someone from taking sitting the AP exams. The
media, or threat of media, can be very helpful in thee cases.Bottom line:
the child took the test.
Kristine
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu]On
> Behalf Of Kushner, Leslie
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:09 AM
> To: 'OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu'
> Subject: RE: Catching up - AP exams
>
>
> I think that there is a "glitch" in the AP program for homeschoolers.
>
> While you do not have to take a course to take the test, you do
> have to have
> someone order and administer the test. I was told, by the people
> at ETS when
> I looked into this, that the most appropriate way to have this
> happen is to
> ask a high school to order and administer the test. However, any
> particular
> high school is under no obligation to do this. Unlike tests such
> as the SATs
> which the collegeboard administers and you register via the collegeboard,
> you would register for the AP test through a high school. So,
> basically, you
> would have to have a high school which is willing to do this for you. They
> also told me, at ETS, that if I find this to be a problem, they
> would try to
> help me find such a high school.
>
> J is taking Math BC, this year, as a homeschooler and I don't
> anticipate her
> HS giving us trouble when we ask them to order the exam. However, I would
> have liked J to take AP Music Theory but I don't think J's HS would be
> favorably disposed to ordering and administering that exam and it may be
> hard to find another HS willing to do that.
>
> How do you homeschoolers handle the AP testing?
>
> Leslie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathi Kearney [mailto:kkearney@midcoast.com]
> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 11:50 AM
> To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
> Subject: Re: Catching up - AP exams
>
>
> Carol wrote:
>
> > I have a query about early college/high school course for my 9
> yo ds. We
> > began
> > hs'ing last year and quickly went through math levels - he will be
> starting
> > algebra next month. He reads avidly for our history lessons
> and seems to
> be
> > capable of at least high school level science - I believe almost college
> level
> > with some hand holding.
> >
> > I have been thinking about guiding him through AP level courses (perhaps
> > auditing a course at a local college) and documenting by signing him up
> for
> > the
> > AP tests. This way he would have some college credit and save
> us money in
> > tuition along the way.
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience with this sort of strategy or know of
> anyone
> > that has dome something similar?>>>>>
>
> The AP course descriptions are all free online at the College Board's
> website:
>
> http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html
>
> It's not well known, but you do *not* have to be formally
> enrolled in an AP
> course in order to take the AP exam (however, if you'd LIKE to be enrolled
> in an AP course and don't have them in your area, or you have a
> young child
> or a homeschooled student, there are many online options for AP courses,
> including some specifically for homeschoolers).
>
> One other option is to take the CLEP tests instead. Many colleges and
> universities will give direct college credit for CLEP exams (but
> you have to
> check with the college you are interested in to see which ones they will
> accept, just the way you have to do with AP exams). With AP, colleges have
> the option of either issuing college credit, or offering
> "advanced standing"
> (no credit, but you get to get out of the intro courses in that
> area). With
> CLEP, the credit is awarded directly.
>
> David and Laurie Callihan's book contains an entire chapter on using the
> CLEP exams as part of homeschooling.
>
> The Callihans have two articles about CLEP exams and homeschooling on the
> crosswalk.com website, which provide very informative "how-tos". Here are
> the links:
>
> http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1196781.html
>
> http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1197970.html
>
> Both AP exams and CLEP exams can save a family a considerable amount of
> college tuition, if the child does well and the college you are interested
> in accepts the exams for actual college credit.
> _____________________________________________________________________
> The bottom line, for us, is that if J wants to take the test, she will. I am
very good at advocacy.
However, I believe this to be a problem with the way ETS is handling things.
This is not just a problem for homeschoolers, but for any child who wants to
take an AP exam who hasn't taken the course the HS gives. I think that high
schools which have an AP administrator, who already administer AP tests,
should be *required* to administer the test to all comers. Students could
register via the ETS (like they do for SATs and SATIIs) and the ETS would
"pay" the HS for the # of tests administered. That way HS's wouldn't
excercise power over this. There must be many students who would want to
take such a test, but haven't taken the course. Plus, there are always
students who are prevented from taking the course in their own school and
would like to be able to study for the test, independently. Many of those
students are not permitted to take the test.
In J's case, they actually teach and administer the AP Music Theory at her
school. However, she has taken about 8 years of music theory outside of the
school. The teacher of the course was so reluctant to enroll J in the AP
Music Theory course (which I think would be mostly review for J) because she
had not taken the basic music theory at the school, that we decided that J
would not have a pleasant time in this class. I think that J is already
prepared to take this test. I believe (although I haven't even asked) that
the teacher will not order the test for J because she hasn't taken the
course. But, for us, in the end it doesn't really matter because J has other
documentation of her level of ability in Music Theory and does not need the
credit.
Leslie
-----Original Message-----
From: Kristine]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 3:34 PM
To: OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu
Subject: RE: Catching up - AP exams
Leslie:
I arranged for a 9yo to take the BC Calc.( she was the only one) AP exam.
Her home school district was a tad bit reluctant. Why? they weren't
administrating the BC portion and thought it unfair to the other student's
only taking the AB segment to have a 9 yo taking the BC portion. Can you
believe. Any how it was taken to the Distinct Super's office.It does NOT
make good press to hinder someone from taking sitting the AP exams. The
media, or threat of media, can be very helpful in thee cases.Bottom line:
the child took the test.
Kristine
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu [mailto:owner-OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu]On
> Behalf Of Kushner, Leslie
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 8:09 AM
> To: 'OURGIFTED-L@neiu.edu'
> Subject: RE: Catching up - AP exams
>
>
> I think that there is a "glitch" in the AP program for homeschoolers.
>
> While you do not have to take a course to take the test, you do
> have to have
> someone order and administer the test. I was told, by the people
> at ETS when
> I looked into this, that the most appropriate way to have this
> happen is to
> ask a high school to order and administer the test. However, any
> particular
> high school is under no obligation to do this. Unlike tests such
> as the SATs
> which the collegeboard administers and you register via the collegeboard,
> you would register for the AP test through a high school. So,
> basically, you
> would have to have a high school which is willing to do this for you. They
> also told me, at ETS, that if I find this to be a problem, they
> would try to
> help me find such a high school.
>
> J is taking Math BC, this year, as a homeschooler and I don't
> anticipate her
> HS giving us trouble when we ask them to order the exam. However, I would
> have liked J to take AP Music Theory but I don't think J's HS would be
> favorably disposed to ordering and administering that exam and it may be
> hard to find another HS willing to do that.
>
> How do you homeschoolers handle the AP testing?
>
> Leslie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathi Kearney [mailto:kkearney@midcoast.com]
> Subject: Re: Catching up - AP exams
>
>
> Carol wrote:
>
> > I have a query about early college/high school course for my 9
> yo ds. We
> > began
> > hs'ing last year and quickly went through math levels - he will be
> starting
> > algebra next month. He reads avidly for our history lessons
> and seems to
> be
> > capable of at least high school level science - I believe almost college
> level
> > with some hand holding.
> >
> > I have been thinking about guiding him through AP level courses (perhaps
> > auditing a course at a local college) and documenting by signing him up
> for
> > the
> > AP tests. This way he would have some college credit and save
> us money in
> > tuition along the way.
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience with this sort of strategy or know of
> anyone
> > that has dome something similar?>>>>>
>
> The AP course descriptions are all free online at the College Board's
> website:
>
> http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/subjects.html
>
> It's not well known, but you do *not* have to be formally
> enrolled in an AP
> course in order to take the AP exam (however, if you'd LIKE to be enrolled
> in an AP course and don't have them in your area, or you have a
> young child
> or a homeschooled student, there are many online options for AP courses,
> including some specifically for homeschoolers).
>
> One other option is to take the CLEP tests instead. Many colleges and
> universities will give direct college credit for CLEP exams (but
> you have to
> check with the college you are interested in to see which ones they will
> accept, just the way you have to do with AP exams). With AP, colleges have
> the option of either issuing college credit, or offering
> "advanced standing"
> (no credit, but you get to get out of the intro courses in that
> area). With
> CLEP, the credit is awarded directly.
>
> David and Laurie Callihan's book contains an entire chapter on using the
> CLEP exams as part of homeschooling.
>
> The Callihans have two articles about CLEP exams and homeschooling on the
> crosswalk.com website, which provide very informative "how-tos". Here are
> the links:
>
> http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1196781.html
>
> http://www.crosswalk.com/family/home_school/1197970.html
>
> Both AP exams and CLEP exams can save a family a considerable amount of
> college tuition, if the child does well and the college you are interested
> in accepts the exams for actual college credit.
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
>I think that high
>schools which have an AP administrator, who already administer AP tests,
>should be *required* to administer the test to all comers. Students could
>register via the ETS (like they do for SATs and SATIIs)
There is the same problem with the PSAT tests -- only given at high schools
and you must contact them and ask permission for them to include your
student on their testing day.
- Joni
Leslie,
I am shocked that there is a school that would refuse
to administer an AP exam for one of its own students
when the school is already adminstering the same exam
for some of its other students. On what basis could
it refuse to administer the exam? This is not an ETS
problem (and I agree that there are problems with the
way ETS has set up the AP system); this is a problem
in the school district.
I understand why one might decide not to fight this
particular battle but I would be very concerned about
what else the administration might be doing--or not
doing.
CJ
--- "Kushner, Leslie" <LKushner@lij.edu> wrote:
> The bottom line, for us, is that if J wants to take
> the test, she will. I am
> very good at advocacy.
>
> However, I believe this to be a problem with the way
> ETS is handling things.
> This is not just a problem for homeschoolers, but
> for any child who wants to
> take an AP exam who hasn't taken the course the HS
> gives. I think that high
> schools which have an AP administrator, who already
> administer AP tests,
> should be *required* to administer the test to all
> comers. Students could
> register via the ETS (like they do for SATs and
> SATIIs) and the ETS would
> "pay" the HS for the # of tests administered. That
> way HS's wouldn't
> excercise power over this. There must be many
> students who would want to
> take such a test, but haven't taken the course.
> Plus, there are always
> students who are prevented from taking the course in
> their own school and
> would like to be able to study for the test,
> independently. Many of those
> students are not permitted to take the test.
>
> In J's case, they actually teach and administer the
> AP Music Theory at her
> school.
--- " Leslie" > wrote: >
1.
It teaches the children that its not ok to be a
> little bored, or a little
>
> frustrated, which is part of life in general, and
> that the pattern is not
> repeated later on in life.
This statement is a sad indictment of the
comprehension of the intellectual and emotional needs
of the child who is learning much faster than the
norm. To sensitise the author to the experiences
he/she does not comprehend, it might be instructive to
think of someone of normal intelligence being educated
and socialising only with children who are severely
intellectually impaird. Would this normal child gain
from years of this experience or would they be harmed
emotionally and intellectually?
> 2. When you take a child out of school into home
> schooling, the other
> students, school and the education system suffer, as
> well as the gifted
> community suffer. Because the school no longer has
> to deal with the gifted
> child, it can sweep the needs of gifted youth under
> the table because they
> dont have to deal with it. It reduces Gifted
> lobbying and political evidence
>
There are probably distinct limits on what can be
achieved for highly gifted children within the school
environment and parents who eventually take their
children out often do so because they realise that due
to attitudes held by such people as yourself that no
'change' is possible. I am reading this post out of
context but there appears to be an internal
contradiction in the post between the idea that there
are needs that can only be met if gifted children stay
in school and a belief that there is no need that
requires any such politically motivated action on
their behalf.
As far as gifted lobbying goes, as members of the
poorest group in my society I feel entitled to do what
is best for my son because what is done by other
people can only disbenefit us disproportionately to
other people. Put more simply, we can't be much worse
off than we are in our society so I uphold the right
to self-determine what is in our best political
interests because we are in a more vulnerable position
than most in society and certainly most gifted
families. I do not feel that other people have the
right to tell me what I ought to do to make their lot
better when chances are they are not taking political
action to better our lot but no one sees a conceptual
problem with that. I think one of the main problems
with the political cause of gifted education is this
lack of any objective sense of justice. It is like the
gifted community thinks that it doesn't matter how
rich or poor you are that you are going to suffer in
proportion to your giftedness and you or your child
should be defended on the basis of your level of
giftedness. And when they ask for accomodations from
the limited public funds for all students there is
little recognition that they are asking for money to
be taken from groups who suffer from reasons other
than giftedness. There is no objective yardstick being
offered up to measure suffering according to criteria
other than giftedness. Yet those who lobby for
understanding of gifted children appear comparitively
silent on the issue of suffering caused by being born
to a poor family. It is like the gifted community is
asking society in general to believe that they have an
objectively proven level of suffering that justifies
consideration and resources but the suffering of
people due to economic exclusion from the economy are
not to be measured on the same stick. If they were
then they would need a whole lot more money than the
gifted to bring them up to par because of the very way
that 'suffering' is measured. These are some of the
themes that I hope to bring into any future
e-conference on the politics of intelligence.
As gifted people we are asking for compassion in a
society that is often devoid of it. We fail to see
that when that lack of compassion becomes a problem
for us (when our children can not benefit from their
intellectual superiority because of the political
interpretations put on it) we are experiencing the
same disempowerment that many people experience due to
widely accepted beliefs about the justice of a
competitve economy. We dont' seek to challenge these
beliefs because without a competitive economy our
children lose the benefit of their superior skills but
then neither do we realise that their suffering can
only be mitigated by addressing the suffering our
society has the least compassion for.
We think only of the individual and fail to
acknowledge how the system effects the individual
unless it is our children that it is effecting. *Then*
we want to argue for systemic injustice that is
deserving of public concern, to change a situation
that is beyond our individual control. At the same
time our societies are very intolerant toward people
who can not compete in a market economy. We give them
the barest amount of income because the gifted people
who make the most out of the economy can't afford any
more compassion than a very limited welfare state will
allow. And *then* we seek to redistribute public funds
to gifted students who compete with other students who
will never have their potential to earn from the
economy defending our claim on the basis of social
justice.
I can see why our agenda as a lobby group encounters
difficulties in achieveing its aim of greater
consideration/funding for gifted students but I think
most people just think of their own family without
really thinking much about why giftedness is so
problematic because they rarely question the inherhent
justice of distribution of reward in society. I guess
that if we are benefiting reasonably from the existing
social order then it will seem reasonable to us.
However it is the people who concern themselves with
the very question of whether it really is reasonable
who lobby effectively against giving a greater share
of the tiny pie to gifted children. Perhaps they have
a point and until we listen then I fear we will not
reach our potential as a society.
Rosie Williams
=====
Rose Williams
http://advocacyweb.netfirms.com
- I have a couple of pages on my site on Open Learning Australia for accelerants: http://myhome.ispdr.net.au/~ariseres/internet_resource_library/ola.htm http://myhome.ispdr.net.au/~ariseres/internet_resource_library/accelerated_university.htm Rosie Williams http://ispdr.net.au/~ariseres --- Miriam de Vries wrote: > Kathi, > > Sorry that I'm posting after the conference has > closed, but I'm running > behind in reading my conference mail, and noticed > you didn't get a reply to > your query regarding Open Learning.
Rose Williams